Vikings Message Board.Com

fiestavike wrote:I don't think Gerhart starts for anyone barring injury. He was a bad draft pick, but one of the few we have had in the last several years. I would love to be able to trade him before the season starts for even a 6th or 7th rd pick.

Interesting. I think he'd have a legit chance to start for the Jets, Colts, Cardinals, Steelers and possibly the Rams and Bengals. He could've easily have started for the Packers last season. It's really interesting how differently Vikings fans view him. In hindsight it would have been better to have selected Sean Lee, Golden Tate or Carlos Dunlap, but when you're a run-first team with the most violent runner in the league, it's not a bad idea to have a talented #2 RB you can lean on if your starter goes down and not have to significantly adapt your offense. As Jim mentioned, Toby's 4.9 YPC in 2011 put him in the top-10 as far as RBs with at least 100 carries/season.

I guess I don't get the hate.

dead_poet wrote: Interesting. I think he'd have a legit chance to start for the Jets, Colts, Cardinals, Steelers and possibly the Rams and Bengals. He could've easily have started for the Packers last season. It's really interesting how differently Vikings fans view him. In hindsight it would have been better to have selected Sean Lee, Golden Tate or Carlos Dunlap, but when you're a run-first team with the most violent runner in the league, it's not a bad idea to have a talented #2 RB you can lean on if your starter goes down and not have to significantly adapt your offense. As Jim mentioned, Toby's 4.9 YPC in 2011 put him in the top-10 as far as RBs with at least 100 carries/season.

I guess I don't get the hate.

I think it's because Vikings fans are so used to watching Peterson. Then trot just about anyone else on the field and they look sub-par. In reality I think he's a good back. I'll even go as far as to predict Gerhart is starting for a team in the next 3 years unless he gets injured.

Just because some people don't feel he's starting caliber doesn't mean they're hating. You're essentially saying that if someone disagrees with your opinion then they're a hater.

I happen to agree. The guy is a block on legs. And even despite his size, he's not the best at breaking tackles. He goes down on first contact more times than not. He'd be great back in the 60's and 70's, but in today's NFL is nothing more than a second tier backup.

PacificNorseWest wrote:Just because some people don't feel he's starting caliber doesn't mean they're hating. You're essentially saying that if someone disagrees with your opinion then they're a hater.

That is not what I'm saying.

I happen to agree. The guy is a block on legs. And even despite his size, he's not the best at breaking tackles. He goes down on first contact more times than not. He'd be great back in the 60's and 70's, but in today's NFL is nothing more than a second tier backup.

I also disagree that he goes down on first contact more often than not. He's one of the harder running backs to bring down, especially if he has a full head of steam going.

He's also not as slow as people think he is. 4.53 40 isn't a block.

He averaged 419 yards on 83 carries (5.0 YPC) in six games filling in for Peterson in 2011. He rushed 11 times for 109 yards in Week 16 against the Redskins, 19 times for 90 yards and three catches for 19 yards with a touchdown vs. the Lions and 91 yards on 21 carries and caught eight passes for 42 yards vs. a good Denver defense. He's a back that needs 15-20 carries in a game to be productive. He's not the traditional change-of-pace runner you normally see as a RB compliment.

Having a second bulldozer to help end games is (in my opinion) just as effective as a scat-back type when playing a tired defense.

I don't think he's a top-10 RB in the league, but I think he could be a productive starter on a team when asked to carry the load.

Speed is irrelevant to shiftiness. He has none. His upper body is a block and he has no sway to him.

On first contact may be pushing it, but he certainly doesn't break many tackles. He'll make it struggle for the defender to take him down, but he will hardly elude that defender.

The bulk of Toby's yards have come on gaping holes and not his elusiveness as a runner.

PacificNorseWest wrote:Speed is irrelevant to shiftiness. He has none. His upper body is a block and he has no sway to him.

Nevertheless, he's still an effective runner. isn't that what counts?

Peterson is a rare combination of just about every trait you want in a running back: size, speed, agility, etc. However, as you know, most backs lack one trait or another. Gerhart may lack shiftiness and breakaway speed but he has power and a diverse skill set. Another back might be faster or shiftier but lack power or that diversity of skills. The bottom line for any player is to produce when called upon and most of the time, Gerhart has done that.

On first contact may be pushing it, but he certainly doesn't break many tackles. He'll make it struggle for the defender to take him down, but he will hardly elude that defender.

Eluding a tackle isn't the same as breaking a tackle. It seems to me that Gerhart is pretty good at gaining yards after contact.

I understand why some people might prefer a different type of back but I don't understand why so many insist on running down Gerhart as if he's not a good RB. If given the chance on a reasonably good team, I think he could probably be a 1000+ yard rusher in the NFL. When he had that chance in college, he was extremely productive and as dead_poet pointed out, when Gerhart filled in for Peterson in 2011, he delivered.

dead_poet wrote:That is not what I'm saying.

But you do hate everything under the sun.

I think Toby is extremely effective doing what is asked of him as a Viking, and I think he could start and put up good #s if he got the carries. He's good catching the ball too.

No, he won't break off long runs in the NFL and is probaly best used in tandem with another back rather than being featured.

I can see the desire for a more shifty guy who can get downfield and score...or be dangeous in the flat with a pass.
If he doesn't want to leave I doubt they trade him. I have no real feel for what he thinks about is role. Best of luck to him if he goes elsewhere and starts. That will end the debate....but he's a good football player.

You do realize that there are people here who have no ideas what you are talking about.

Probably but they can ask me if they want to know ... besides its not my responsibility
to be website historian.. I knew several would get the reference

Nevertheless, he's still an effective runner.

It seems to me that Gerhart is pretty good at gaining yards after contact.

I disagree. He averaged 3.4 yds/carry. That's not that great nor effective and it isn't a number indicative of someone who does well after contact on a consistent basis.

Eluding a tackle isn't the same as breaking a tackle.

I agree, but he does neither of these. His yards come from a quick burst through a gaping hole. The first defender that touches him is usually the guy that makes the tackle. Gerhart may push for another yard or so, but for the most part, he doesn't. If he did then you'd see a bigger number than 3.4 yards per carry.

PacificNorseWest wrote: I disagree. He averaged 3.4 yds/carry. That's not that great nor effective and it isn't a number indicative of someone who does well after contact on a consistent basis.

I agree, but he does neither of these. His yards come from a quick burst through a gaping hole. The first defender that touches him is usually the guy that makes the tackle. Gerhart may push for another yard or so, but for the most part, he doesn't. If he did then you'd see a bigger number than 3.4 yards per carry.

You can dog Toby all you want but to say that the first guy that touches him is usually the guy that tackles him is ludicrous
He is a good all around back up with good hands and blocks in pass protection a whole lot better than AD.
He was second runner up in the Heismen and if he were a full time starter he would do quite well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Z9no1x8VE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs_w82IFzdQ

It is not for 2012. Those are highlights, man...Over 3 years. I saw a lot of huge running lanes in those videos, but I digress...

I don't care about runner-up Heisman. That means diddly in the NFL. 3.4 yards/carry...That's not good....At all!

PacificNorseWest wrote:It is not for 2012. Those are highlights, man...Over 3 years. I saw a lot of huge running lanes in those videos, but I digress...

I don't care about runner-up Heisman. That means diddly in the NFL. 3.4 yards/carry...That's not good....At all!

Toby got to rush the ball 3 times per game last year THAT IS THREE TIMES. Most of those carries were short yardage and yes it was for 3.4 yards but you conveniently seem to over look his career average of 4.3 yards per carry which is quite respectable.
He averaged 4.9 yds per carry the year before when he got the opprotunity to carry the ball twice as often.

Average RB's shelf-life is 3 years. Toby regressed in my view last year and I feel you'll see the same if you watch entire game tapes of last year. He came out of the gates real fresh, but I seriously believe he's nothing more than a second tier backup going forward.

He's got a lot of wear on that body even though he's so young and I think last year showed it. Bottom line is we both want the same thing for this team and that is a Super Bowl win. In order to do that you have to have very good depth everywhere on the field and I think backup RB is glaring weakness.

PacificNorseWest wrote:Average RB's shelf-life is 3 years. Toby regressed in my view last year and I feel you'll see the same if you watch entire game tapes of last year. He came out of the gates real fresh, but I seriously believe he's nothing more than a second tier backup going forward.

He's got a lot of wear on that body even though he's so young and I think last year showed it. Bottom line is we both want the same thing for this team and that is a Super Bowl win. In order to do that you have to have very good depth everywhere on the field and I think backup RB is glaring weakness.

Yeah I watched all of the games and saw him get to carry the ball THREE times per game.
A lot of wear with a little over 200 total carries in his entire NFL career wtf?