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When did we get pick #36?VikingsFan84 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:28 am I still can not believe Vikings did not get a 2023 first rounder in return to drop 20 spots!
Who would you all like at #34, #36, and #66 tonight?
It's not garbage, but it's just not the type of compensation normally associated with moving back 20 spots in the first round.Cliff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:52 amWhy do people ignore the 2nd overall pick in the 3rd round like it's garbage?allday1991 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:45 am
Spin it all you want 20 spots in the first for 12 spots in the second, never knew it was harder to move up in the 2nd
I'm sure it was a situation of taking what they could get. They want "their players" and they can't have them without draft capital. Look, I'm not saying this was some terrific move, I'm just saying it's not as terrible as everyone's knee-jerk reaction.VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:50 amIt's not garbage, but it's just not the type of compensation normally associated with moving back 20 spots in the first round.
and 77...VikingsFan84 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:28 am I still can not believe Vikings did not get a 2023 first rounder in return to drop 20 spots!
Who would you all like at #34, #36, and #66 tonight?
Nah, even without the emotional reaction of a fan it sucks, I was at a draft party with 8 buddies none of which are Viking fans and they all couldn’t believe it either, most other Vikings boards have started a fire KAM thread already. Multiple reports have said we got shafted and only our odds dropped for winning a Super Bowl after the first round.That says a lot.Cliff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:54 amI'm sure it was a situation of taking what they could get. They want "their players" and they can't have them without draft capital. Look, I'm not saying this was some terrific move, I'm just saying it's not as terrible as everyone's knee-jerk reaction.VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:50 am
It's not garbage, but it's just not the type of compensation normally associated with moving back 20 spots in the first round.
If history is any indication the Vikings are just about as likely to get a great player in the 3rd as they are the 1st, so I'm not disappointed nor am I jumping with joy.
They gave up some imaginary points or didn't ...
I know they got a seemingly good player and 1st day starter in a secondary that really needed help. I guess if they would have been able to move to pick 26 where he was "worth more points" it would have been all good.
Looking at the 8 1st rounders from 2013 to 2018 was depressing.
Maybe, and that is certainly a fair way to look at it. But you could also say the teams on the other side of those deals "ignored the charts and got fleeced". The point is, "the charts" are completely arbitrary and sometimes GMs do not stick to them like glue.VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:46 am Look at what other teams have got in return for moving down from picks in that range before. The Giants got the Bears pick 20 and their 5th round pick plus the Bears 22 FRP and the bears 22 4th round pick. All this for pick 11. They didn't give up another pick while the Vikings also gave up pick 46. We should have at least been able to keep our 2nd round pick.
Sorry, I was wrong, #34, #66, and #77VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:49 amWhen did we get pick #36?VikingsFan84 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:28 am I still can not believe Vikings did not get a 2023 first rounder in return to drop 20 spots!
Who would you all like at #34, #36, and #66 tonight?
The owners are the constant. : |StpViking wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:31 am My issue with the draft so far, and quite frankly the whole off season is how familiar this all seems. A defensive coordinator bringing his son as an assistant. A GM that is piling up draft picks for the 3rd year in a row. An expensive free agent with a history of injury problems. Keeping overpaid veterans when you are trying to build a new team in your image.
A very negative view I understand, but I was really hoping for something different from the KAM and KOC era.
Cliff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:12 amRegardless of the value you personally put on the pick it *is* part of the deal. They didn't just move back 20 in the first to move up 12 in the second. Had they done that it would have unquestionably been a bad trade.allday1991 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:55 am
I thought our last gm proved quality > quantity especially in a draft where multiple scouts have said there is only 12-18 first round picks. So no I’m not overly happy about a 3rd in a weak draft class. When’s the last time we even hit on a 3rd? Hunter?
Anyway, it's not like there's any guarantees anywhere in the draft. It's generally agreed that it takes about 3 years to properly grade a new player, unless they're obviously horrible, of course. So looking back starting in 2018:
2018
1st round: Mike Hughes
3rd round: (no pick)
2017
1st round: (no pick)
3rd round: Pat Elfein (Not great but is still starting in the league, has been injured a lot)
2016
1st round: Laquon Treadwell
3rd round: (no pick)
2015
1st round: Trae Waynes
3rd round: Hunter
2014:
1st round: Barr, Bridgewater
3rd round: Scott Crichton, Jerick Mckinnon
2013:
1st Round: Sharrif Floyd, Xavier Rhodes, Cordarrelle Patterson
3rd Round: (no pick)
Maybe half the reason we don't remember very many good 3rd round picks is because Slick Rick enjoyed trading them away.
Anyway, from 2013 to 2018 we've had eight 1st round picks and three 3rd rounders.
Of the first round picks, Barr is really the only one that panned out long term. Same with our 3rd rounder, Hunter. McKinnon was pretty good too but had (and has) injury issues.
Who knows, maybe our new GM will be better at making 3rd round picks.
Big difference in timed speed and actually playing the game. I seen Hamilton go from one side of the field to the other and pick the ball off. That's playing speed. Cine can't do that. Has zero ball skills. If you have limited reaction time and play recognition skill speed means nothing and that's what he is. He's a track guy and knows the fundamentals of running the 40. We are playing football and making plays on the ball when it's in the air takes more than speed. Willis will never be more than a backup. He's TJack if everything breaks right. The chance of things breaking right aren't good.IIsweet wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:42 am Definitely not thrilled with our trade ! However, having seen Cine play all I say is that this dude is going to be making plays all over the place. I think that he is similar to the other switchblade safeties that have been drafted recently. I also think that maybe the speed factor is a big issue for our new defense and that's why Hamilton is passed over. We already have Harrison who is no spring chicken. Cine at 6'2 200 is blazing fast. 4.37 speed and is a BIG GAME player. CFB National Championship game MVP !!! He didn't disappear like so many do. He will start immediately and be a difference maker from day 1 !!!
I am now very interested in seeing how tonight goes. We have 34, 66, and 77.
I expect a trade down from 34 though, but maybe a trade back into the 2nd with the added 3rd.
Adding 2 picks in the 2nd is pretty good. Would Seattle trade their 2 2nds for 34 and then take Malik Willis ?
Nobody is ignoring it, it's just NOT WHAT HAPPENED. If the Vikings went 12 for 32 and 34 its a reasonable deal. But the Vikings also gave up the 46th. 12 and 46 for 32 and 34 is terrible, and requires more compensation than the 66th pick to make it a decent trade.Cliff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:52 amWhy do people ignore the 2nd overall pick in the 3rd round like it's garbage?allday1991 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:45 am
Spin it all you want 20 spots in the first for 12 spots in the second, never knew it was harder to move up in the 2nd
Look at the Compensation the Giants got last year for just moving down to 20. They didn't include their 2nd round pick in that deal.Cliff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:54 amI'm sure it was a situation of taking what they could get. They want "their players" and they can't have them without draft capital. Look, I'm not saying this was some terrific move, I'm just saying it's not as terrible as everyone's knee-jerk reaction.VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:50 am
It's not garbage, but it's just not the type of compensation normally associated with moving back 20 spots in the first round.
If history is any indication the Vikings are just about as likely to get a great player in the 3rd as they are the 1st, so I'm not disappointed nor am I jumping with joy.
They gave up some imaginary points or didn't ...
I know they got a seemingly good player and 1st day starter in a secondary that really needed help. I guess if they would have been able to move to pick 26 where he was "worth more points" it would have been all good.
Looking at the 8 1st rounders from 2013 to 2018 was depressing.
I like 40-41 for 34, but Seattle knows how little it takes to get us to move back so they won't offer those 2. Kwesi will accept 40 and a pick in the 3rd or 4th. Also it's not that far back to 40, but CBs like Booth and Gordon could be gone as well as Pickens and Watson.IIsweet wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:59 amand 77...VikingsFan84 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:28 am I still can not believe Vikings did not get a 2023 first rounder in return to drop 20 spots!
Who would you all like at #34, #36, and #66 tonight?
34 traded to Seattle for 40 and 41.. SEA takes QB Malik Willis I see this as very realistic since behind us are TEN with an aging Tannehill and then the NYG who declined Daniel Jones 5th year option. So QB is going to a popular pick !
so...
40 DT Perrion Winfrey
41 WR Christian Watson
66 CB Tariq Woolen
77 LB Channing Tindall
I'm very disappointed by the trade, but in fairness Cine has better than Zero ball skills. He also has excellent reaction and recognition skills. Hamilton's best timed speed was 4.59 and he timed at 4.7 other times. That is LaQuon Treadwell sun dial speed. Maybe we just thought his track speed couldn't be overcome by his good instincts and recognition.CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:25 amBig difference in timed speed and actually playing the game. I seen Hamilton go from one side of the field to the other and pick the ball off. That's playing speed. Cine can't do that. Has zero ball skills. If you have limited reaction time and play recognition skill speed means nothing and that's what he is. He's a track guy and knows the fundamentals of running the 40. We are playing football and making plays on the ball when it's in the air takes more than speed. Willis will never be more than a backup. He's TJack if everything breaks right. The chance of things breaking right aren't good.IIsweet wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:42 am Definitely not thrilled with our trade ! However, having seen Cine play all I say is that this dude is going to be making plays all over the place. I think that he is similar to the other switchblade safeties that have been drafted recently. I also think that maybe the speed factor is a big issue for our new defense and that's why Hamilton is passed over. We already have Harrison who is no spring chicken. Cine at 6'2 200 is blazing fast. 4.37 speed and is a BIG GAME player. CFB National Championship game MVP !!! He didn't disappear like so many do. He will start immediately and be a difference maker from day 1 !!!
I am now very interested in seeing how tonight goes. We have 34, 66, and 77.
I expect a trade down from 34 though, but maybe a trade back into the 2nd with the added 3rd.
Adding 2 picks in the 2nd is pretty good. Would Seattle trade their 2 2nds for 34 and then take Malik Willis ?
A man walks into a Casino. He puts 5 dollars in a slot machine. Do we have to wait to see what happens in order to determine whether his decision was good or bad?psjordan wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:37 amWell certainly a lot of people are posting in "absolutes", as in "we absolutely got fleeced in this deal". To me, that is assuming you know we got fleeced. Nothing condescending about it. I based my comments off of the posts in this thread.fiestavike wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:26 am Nobody "thinks they know". We know this was a sh%^ trade value. If you don't get that, I can see why you don't understand the degree and volume of criticism coming Kwesi's way. You really miss the point if you think the critics of the trade "think they know" everything, but that's just a very condescending assumption.
And I "get" the degree of carp being directed at our GM, I just don't agree with it.
Even stating "we got fleeced on VALUE" is basically stating you know the value of these picks. No one knows the value of these picks. This is not a game played with charts made up by Jimmy Johnson, this is a game played on the field. The ONLY valid perception of value is how the actual players selected play on the field. And that is a combination of being drafted by us AND being coached by us. It is in no way tied to some arbitrary chart.
And unfortunately for all of us impatient fans, the only way to judge value is to see how the players perform on the field, after being coached by our staff.
What is your definition of a good GM? One who follows JJ's charts and always gets "more points" than other GM's, or one who selects players that perform well on the field based on their traits and our ability to coach? Good grief, you have to wait for the latter.