Vikings Message Board.Com

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 10:48 am

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 8:40 am


You can continue to mislead people with that stat, or you can be honest about it. Not all fumbles are the same, yet here you are pretending they are. Why won't you "dig deeper" on this one?

It's not misleading at all. Yeah sure, some guys might fumble outside of the pocket or botch a snap here and there but lets be honest, how many NFL QBs botch snaps anymore? Very little. I remember a few of Cousins fumbles were outside of the pocket or on the run. It's a dead accurate statistic that proves your statement to be false. I dont get why you are fighting it. A fumble is a fumble. You're really going to sit there and tell me that the only reason Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, Pat Mahomes had more fumbles than Cousins was because they were botching snaps more and bobbling more hand offs than he was? That excuse destroys saying the missed calls by the refs is why the Packers OL was good this year. I didnt think anyone could beat that excuse but you just did if that's what you're going to say.

This is simply you once again, giving excuses for every other QB but those excuses arent allowed with Kirk Cousins in your book. You do this all the time. I honestly cant believe that you're sitting there trying to say I'M misleading people with Cousins fumbling rate stat that I figured out but you're going to practically say that Kirk Cousins didnt have unforced fumbles and other QBs did. TRUST ME, you dont watch football or other teams nearly enough to know if their QB had a bunch of unforced fumbles or not. Nobody does. No less, the amount of unforced fumbles in the NFL by a QB, is a pretty low percentage. AT MOST, any starting QB in the NFL has MAYBE one more "unforced fumble" than Cousins did. Two would be an absolute stretch and if anyone was at 2, it would be pretty rare. The funny thing is, YOU dont even know what the number is but you're sitting there acting like it's a proven fact lol and trying to use it against my statement that he's 10th best or better in the NFL in fumbling rate. When that is actually a provent fact. Man some of the stuff you pull out of the clouds just to defend your "Cousins was a bad signing" overall opinion, is just mind-blowing. Defending your opinion and backing it up is one thing and you've made some solid points in the past. But if anyone questions your opinion regarding Cousins and what he's good/bad at and you dont agree, you'd literally reach down into the satan's toilet to come up with a reason why you are right. At least I'm using actual statistics, doing some math over here and comparing him to other QB's. I dont know what you are doing at this point.

Either way, here are the fumble rates for all 32 QBs in the NFL in 2018 in order from best to worst:

Andy Dalton- Every 365.0 attempts (only fumbled once, missed a lot of the year)
Philip Rivers- Every 254.0 attempts (only fumbled twice, he's usually pretty prone to fumbles)
Tom Brady- Every 114.0 attempts
Aaron Rodgers- Every 99.5 attempts
Ben Roethlisberger- Every 96.4 attempts
Matt Stafford- Every 92.5 attempts
Andrew Luck- Every 91.3 attempts
Sam Darnold- Every 82.8 attempts
Eli Manning- Every 82.7 attempts
Cam Newton- Every 78.5 attempts
Mitch Trubisky- Every 72.3 attempts
Drew Brees- Every 69.8 attempts
Baker Mayfield- Every 69.4 attempts
Kirk Cousins- Every 67.3 attempts
Matt Ryan- Every 60.8 attempts
Deshaun Watson- Every 56.1 attempts
Ryan Tannehill- Every 54.8 attempts
Alex Smith- Every 54.7 attempts
Jameis Winston- Every 54.0 attempts
Case Keenum- Every 53.3 attempts
Pat Mahomes- Every 52.7 attempts
Blake Bortles- Every 50.4 attempts
Derek Carr- Every 46.1 attempts
Carson Wentz- Every 44.6 attempts
Dak Prescott- Every 43.8 attempts
Russell Wilson- Every 42.7 attempts
Jared Goff- Every 40.1 attempts
Josh Allen- Every 40.0 attempts
Josh Rosen- Every 39.3 attempts
Marcus Mariota- Every 36.7 attempts
Jimmy Garoppolo- Every 22.3 attempts
Lamar Jackson- Every 11.3 attempts

So as it sits, Kirk Cousins is slightly above league average at 14th in protecting the football. Guys ahead of him like Rivers and Eli are tough to judge because these were some of their best years by far where usually they are somewhat notorious for fumbling the football. Twist this any way you want, bring up your bogus unforced fumbling argument that you dont even have a stat for, whatever. Either way, this is a proven fact and Kirk Cousins is not "horrible" at protecting the football, otherwise he'd be right down towards the bottom of the list.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 12:02 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 10:48 am

It's not misleading at all. Yeah sure, some guys might fumble outside of the pocket or botch a snap here and there but lets be honest, how many NFL QBs botch snaps anymore? Very little. I remember a few of Cousins fumbles were outside of the pocket or on the run. It's a dead accurate statistic that proves your statement to be false. I dont get why you are fighting it. A fumble is a fumble. You're really going to sit there and tell me that the only reason Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, Pat Mahomes had more fumbles than Cousins was because they were botching snaps more and bobbling more hand offs than he was? That excuse destroys saying the missed calls by the refs is why the Packers OL was good this year. I didnt think anyone could beat that excuse but you just did if that's what you're going to say.

This is simply you once again, giving excuses for every other QB but those excuses arent allowed with Kirk Cousins in your book. You do this all the time. I honestly cant believe that you're sitting there trying to say I'M misleading people with Cousins fumbling rate stat that I figured out but you're going to practically say that Kirk Cousins didnt have unforced fumbles and other QBs did. TRUST ME, you dont watch football or other teams nearly enough to know if their QB had a bunch of unforced fumbles or not. Nobody does. No less, the amount of unforced fumbles in the NFL by a QB, is a pretty low percentage. AT MOST, any starting QB in the NFL has MAYBE one more "unforced fumble" than Cousins did. Two would be an absolute stretch and if anyone was at 2, it would be pretty rare. The funny thing is, YOU dont even know what the number is but you're sitting there acting like it's a proven fact lol and trying to use it against my statement that he's 10th best or better in the NFL in fumbling rate. When that is actually a provent fact. Man some of the stuff you pull out of the clouds just to defend your "Cousins was a bad signing" overall opinion, is just mind-blowing. Defending your opinion and backing it up is one thing and you've made some solid points in the past. But if anyone questions your opinion regarding Cousins and what he's good/bad at and you dont agree, you'd literally reach down into the satan's toilet to come up with a reason why you are right. At least I'm using actual statistics, doing some math over here and comparing him to other QB's. I dont know what you are doing at this point.

Either way, here are the fumble rates for all 32 QBs in the NFL in 2018 in order from best to worst:

Andy Dalton- Every 365.0 attempts (only fumbled once, missed a lot of the year)
Philip Rivers- Every 254.0 attempts (only fumbled twice, he's usually pretty prone to fumbles)
Tom Brady- Every 114.0 attempts
Aaron Rodgers- Every 99.5 attempts
Ben Roethlisberger- Every 96.4 attempts
Matt Stafford- Every 92.5 attempts
Andrew Luck- Every 91.3 attempts
Sam Darnold- Every 82.8 attempts
Eli Manning- Every 82.7 attempts
Cam Newton- Every 78.5 attempts
Mitch Trubisky- Every 72.3 attempts
Drew Brees- Every 69.8 attempts
Baker Mayfield- Every 69.4 attempts
Kirk Cousins- Every 67.3 attempts
Matt Ryan- Every 60.8 attempts
Deshaun Watson- Every 56.1 attempts
Ryan Tannehill- Every 54.8 attempts
Alex Smith- Every 54.7 attempts
Jameis Winston- Every 54.0 attempts
Case Keenum- Every 53.3 attempts
Pat Mahomes- Every 52.7 attempts
Blake Bortles- Every 50.4 attempts
Derek Carr- Every 46.1 attempts
Carson Wentz- Every 44.6 attempts
Dak Prescott- Every 43.8 attempts
Russell Wilson- Every 42.7 attempts
Jared Goff- Every 40.1 attempts
Josh Allen- Every 40.0 attempts
Josh Rosen- Every 39.3 attempts
Marcus Mariota- Every 36.7 attempts
Jimmy Garoppolo- Every 22.3 attempts
Lamar Jackson- Every 11.3 attempts

So as it sits, Kirk Cousins is slightly above league average at 14th in protecting the football. Guys ahead of him like Rivers and Eli are tough to judge because these were some of their best years by far where usually they are somewhat notorious for fumbling the football. Twist this any way you want, bring up your bogus unforced fumbling argument that you dont even have a stat for, whatever. Either way, this is a proven fact and Kirk Cousins is not "horrible" at protecting the football, otherwise he'd be right down towards the bottom of the list.

This is just taking into account his fumbles. He also did a very good job on limiting interceptions to just one per 60 pass attempts.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 10:48 am

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 8:40 am


You can continue to mislead people with that stat, or you can be honest about it. Not all fumbles are the same, yet here you are pretending they are. Why won't you "dig deeper" on this one?

It's not misleading at all. Yeah sure, some guys might fumble outside of the pocket or botch a snap here and there but lets be honest, how many NFL QBs botch snaps anymore? Very little. I remember a few of Cousins fumbles were outside of the pocket or on the run. It's a dead accurate statistic that proves your statement to be false. I dont get why you are fighting it. A fumble is a fumble. You're really going to sit there and tell me that the only reason Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, Pat Mahomes had more fumbles than Cousins was because they were botching snaps more and bobbling more hand offs than he was? That excuse destroys saying the missed calls by the refs is why the Packers OL was good this year. I didnt think anyone could beat that excuse but you just did if that's what you're going to say.

This is simply you once again, giving excuses for every other QB but those excuses arent allowed with Kirk Cousins in your book. You do this all the time. I honestly cant believe that you're sitting there trying to say I'M misleading people with Cousins fumbling rate stat that I figured out but you're going to practically say that Kirk Cousins didnt have unforced fumbles and other QBs did. TRUST ME, you dont watch football or other teams nearly enough to know if their QB had a bunch of unforced fumbles or not. Nobody does. No less, the amount of unforced fumbles in the NFL by a QB, is a pretty low percentage. AT MOST, any starting QB in the NFL has MAYBE one more "unforced fumble" than Cousins did. Two would be an absolute stretch and if anyone was at 2, it would be pretty rare. The funny thing is, YOU dont even know what the number is but you're sitting there acting like it's a proven fact lol and trying to use it against my statement that he's 10th best or better in the NFL in fumbling rate. When that is actually a provent fact. Man some of the stuff you pull out of the clouds just to defend your "Cousins was a bad signing" overall opinion, is just mind-blowing. Defending your opinion and backing it up is one thing and you've made some solid points in the past. But if anyone questions your opinion regarding Cousins and what he's good/bad at and you dont agree, you'd literally reach down into the satan's toilet to come up with a reason why you are right. At least I'm using actual statistics, doing some math over here and comparing him to other QB's. I dont know what you are doing at this point.

Either way, here are the fumble rates for all 32 QBs in the NFL in 2018 in order from best to worst:

Andy Dalton- Every 365.0 attempts (only fumbled once, missed a lot of the year)
Philip Rivers- Every 254.0 attempts (only fumbled twice, he's usually pretty prone to fumbles)
Tom Brady- Every 114.0 attempts
Aaron Rodgers- Every 99.5 attempts
Ben Roethlisberger- Every 96.4 attempts
Matt Stafford- Every 92.5 attempts
Andrew Luck- Every 91.3 attempts
Sam Darnold- Every 82.8 attempts
Eli Manning- Every 82.7 attempts
Cam Newton- Every 78.5 attempts
Mitch Trubisky- Every 72.3 attempts
Drew Brees- Every 69.8 attempts
Baker Mayfield- Every 69.4 attempts
Kirk Cousins- Every 67.3 attempts
Matt Ryan- Every 60.8 attempts
Deshaun Watson- Every 56.1 attempts
Ryan Tannehill- Every 54.8 attempts
Alex Smith- Every 54.7 attempts
Jameis Winston- Every 54.0 attempts
Case Keenum- Every 53.3 attempts
Pat Mahomes- Every 52.7 attempts
Blake Bortles- Every 50.4 attempts
Derek Carr- Every 46.1 attempts
Carson Wentz- Every 44.6 attempts
Dak Prescott- Every 43.8 attempts
Russell Wilson- Every 42.7 attempts
Jared Goff- Every 40.1 attempts
Josh Allen- Every 40.0 attempts
Josh Rosen- Every 39.3 attempts
Marcus Mariota- Every 36.7 attempts
Jimmy Garoppolo- Every 22.3 attempts
Lamar Jackson- Every 11.3 attempts

So as it sits, Kirk Cousins is slightly above league average at 14th in protecting the football. Guys ahead of him like Rivers and Eli are tough to judge because these were some of their best years by far where usually they are somewhat notorious for fumbling the football. Twist this any way you want, bring up your bogus unforced fumbling argument that you dont even have a stat for, whatever. Either way, this is a proven fact and Kirk Cousins is not "horrible" at protecting the football, otherwise he'd be right down towards the bottom of the list.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 12:53 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 12:02 pm

This is just taking into account his fumbles. He also did a very good job on limiting interceptions to just one per 60 pass attempts.

Exactly. Bottom line is, everything that supports Cousins protecting the football drastically outweighs anything he has provided that shows he is "horrible at protecting the ball".

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 12:54 pm
Cousins fumbled in places where it was easier for the other team to recover or they wouldn't have recovered them at such a high rate. Just like a QB who throws picks at a higher rate throws them because he puts the ball in spots where the defense can pick them off.

You can keep pointing out botched snap numbers to prove that Cousins' strip sacks were unluckily turned over, but it doesn't change the fact he turned the ball over 17 times last year for 3 TDs. That isn't bad luck, it is crappy QB play.

This is not true. When a QB fumbles matters. If a QB fumbles the snap or the handoff, they are much more likely to get the ball back than if they fumble while getting sacked.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 1:35 pm
And as for all the "bad luck" talk, then answer me how he has never once in his career touched 7 lost fumbles but now all of the sudden in year 4 as a starter, is when he does it. That's not just bad luck?

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 4:17 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 1:35 pm
And as for all the "bad luck" talk, then answer me how he has never once in his career touched 7 lost fumbles but now all of the sudden in year 4 as a starter, is when he does it. That's not just bad luck?

Losing 3 fumbles on 26 and 23 sacks in 2015 and 2016 and then that numbering nearly doubling when his sacks nearly doubled in 2017 and going up again in 2018 when the sacks and pressure to perform well increased makes sense for a QB who struggles to feel pressure and protect the ball. I don't know what to tell you.

It is actually shocking he didn't lose more this year based on those numbers. The guy needs to learn to tuck the ball.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 4:17 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 1:35 pm
And as for all the "bad luck" talk, then answer me how he has never once in his career touched 7 lost fumbles but now all of the sudden in year 4 as a starter, is when he does it. That's not just bad luck?

Losing 3 fumbles on 26 and 23 sacks in 2015 and 2016 and then that numbering nearly doubling when his sacks nearly doubled in 2017 and going up again in 2018 when the sacks and pressure to perform well increased makes sense for a QB who struggles to feel pressure and protect the ball. I don't know what to tell you.

It is actually shocking he didn't lose more this year based on those numbers. The guy needs to learn to tuck the ball.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 4:17 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 1:35 pm
And as for all the "bad luck" talk, then answer me how he has never once in his career touched 7 lost fumbles but now all of the sudden in year 4 as a starter, is when he does it. That's not just bad luck?

Losing 3 fumbles on 26 and 23 sacks in 2015 and 2016 and then that numbering nearly doubling when his sacks nearly doubled in 2017 and going up again in 2018 when the sacks and pressure to perform well increased makes sense for a QB who struggles to feel pressure and protect the ball. I don't know what to tell you.

It is actually shocking he didn't lose more this year based on those numbers. The guy needs to learn to tuck the ball.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri May 24, 2019 10:51 am

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 4:17 pm

Losing 3 fumbles on 26 and 23 sacks in 2015 and 2016 and then that numbering nearly doubling when his sacks nearly doubled in 2017 and going up again in 2018 when the sacks and pressure to perform well increased makes sense for a QB who struggles to feel pressure and protect the ball. I don't know what to tell you.

It is actually shocking he didn't lose more this year based on those numbers. The guy needs to learn to tuck the ball.

When sack numbers go up, the chances of fumbling go up. Especially when the sacks practically double. If his sacks double, is it a surprise that his lost fumbles are higher? It makes sense. It would for any QB in the nfl. If Tom Brady, Drew Brees, etc were getting sacked 40 times in one year, wouldn’t you think their fumbles and/or fumbles lost are going to be higher? I can guarantee it. That’s just the reality of it and it’s common sense. That goes to show how bad our OL was.

When you look at every QB in the nfl that were sacked 30 times or more, the only ones that had a better fumble rate than Cousins were Rodgers, Stafford, Eli, Rivers and Sam Darnold. Cousins had the 6th best fumble rate out of 11 QBs that were sacked 40 times or more. That’s pretty solid if you ask me.

So again this is just another point you’re trying to prove, by just looking at a stat sheet. But when you dig deeper, it once again hurts your argument more than it helps it.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri May 24, 2019 12:10 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri May 24, 2019 10:51 am

When sack numbers go up, the chances of fumbling go up. Especially when the sacks practically double. If his sacks double, is it a surprise that his lost fumbles are higher? It makes sense. It would for any QB in the nfl. If Tom Brady, Drew Brees, etc were getting sacked 40 times in one year, wouldn’t you think their fumbles and/or fumbles lost are going to be higher? I can guarantee it. That’s just the reality of it and it’s common sense. That goes to show how bad our OL was.

When you look at every QB in the nfl that were sacked 30 times or more, the only ones that had a better fumble rate than Cousins were Rodgers, Stafford, Eli, Rivers and Sam Darnold. Cousins had the 6th best fumble rate out of 11 QBs that were sacked 40 times or more. That’s pretty solid if you ask me.

So again this is just another point you’re trying to prove, by just looking at a stat sheet. But when you dig deeper, it once again hurts your argument more than it helps it.

No, because again you are including botched snaps in those fumble numbers, while the discussion is specifically about at strip sacks.

Since even a casual football fan knows that most botched snaps and hand offs are recovered by the offense, the stats you just provided provide no real value.

I can say that 5 of Cousins lost fumbles were strip sacks, with 2 more being QB rushes. Fumbles lost per sack he was 4th, but that isn't really what you are looking for. What you want is strip sacks per sack, and I have no idea how to get that number.

Fortunately, we don't really need that number because we know, for a fact, that luck is just an excuse and the reality is Cousins was terrible at protecting the football based on the large number of turnovers he committed.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2019 5:02 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri May 24, 2019 12:10 pm

No, because again you are including botched snaps in those fumble numbers, while the discussion is specifically about at strip sacks.

Since even a casual football fan knows that most botched snaps and hand offs are recovered by the offense, the stats you just provided provide no real value.

I can say that 5 of Cousins lost fumbles were strip sacks, with 2 more being QB rushes. Fumbles lost per sack he was 4th, but that isn't really what you are looking for. What you want is strip sacks per sack, and I have no idea how to get that number.

Fortunately, we don't really need that number because we know, for a fact, that luck is just an excuse and the reality is Cousins was terrible at protecting the football based on the large number of turnovers he committed.

Dude what is with you and botched snaps? How often are botched snaps and handoffs happening in the nfl. Hardly ever anymore but you just use it as an excuse to say that’s why other QBs fumble numbers are inflated. And that’s completely false. I can guarantee it. I’ve already addressed this but you continue to bring it up because it’s the tiny little thread that you’re hanging your argument on when you put Cousins fumble numbers next to everyone elses. It’s like you think Cousins only loses fumbles by getting sacked or running but that doesn’t happen nearly as often to others QBs. It’s because they’re “botching snaps and handoffs”. IF anything, a few QBs out there might, yes might have like one more fumble than Cousins does due to a botched snap. It’s not even worthy of mentioning because it’s a minimal effect on 99%of QBs fumble numbers. This isn’t high school where’s snaps are botched 3 times a game. You’re trying to pull everything you can out of the clouds to somehow show that those fumble numbers I posted are false. And they just aren’t. He fell in the slightly above average range across the league. Period. Argument over

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2019 7:56 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2019 5:02 pm

Dude what is with you and botched snaps? How often are botched snaps and handoffs happening in the nfl. Hardly ever anymore but you just use it as an excuse to say that’s why other QBs fumble numbers are inflated. And that’s completely false. I can guarantee it. I’ve already addressed this but you continue to bring it up because it’s the tiny little thread that you’re hanging your argument on when you put Cousins fumble numbers next to everyone elses. It’s like you think Cousins only loses fumbles by getting sacked or running but that doesn’t happen nearly as often to others QBs. It’s because they’re “botching snaps and handoffs”. IF anything, a few QBs out there might, yes might have like one more fumble than Cousins does due to a botched snap. It’s not even worthy of mentioning because it’s a minimal effect on 99%of QBs fumble numbers. This isn’t high school where’s snaps are botched 3 times a game. You’re trying to pull everything you can out of the clouds to somehow show that those fumble numbers I posted are false. And they just aren’t. He fell in the slightly above average range across the league. Period. Argument over

Your point is based on a made up thing called bad luck. Not a strong argument in my opinion.

His fumbles lost per sack is close to his career numbers. Either he has just been unlucky for 4 years, or he isn't good at protecting the football. Since luck isn't a real thing, we can go with the latter.

The small increase even makes sense. He was holding the ball too long and trying to make a play when he should have been tucking it in to protect it, because of the contract and the weight of needing to perform well enough to earn it. I know the narrative has changed after the fact, but he was brought in to win a Super Bowl, and that is a ton of pressure on a QB. I look at some of Brady's famous fumbles in the playoffs, and they were all on last minute drives to win a football game. Drives where he can't afford to take a sack or check down, so he holds it a split second too long and loses the football. That was Cousins all game all of 2018.

Now that Cousins has lowered the expectations a bit, some of that pressure will be gone and he might go back to just being below average at protecting the football.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2019 8:20 am
Simple as that. Using botched snaps for other QBs is about the poorest excuse you could find.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2019 8:46 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2019 8:20 am
Simple as that. Using botched snaps for other QBs is about the poorest excuse you could find.

Pretty sure "bad luck" is the absolute worst excuse I have ever read.

it's not just based on bad luck. The guy lost 6 fumbles in two years (2015 and 2016). Then fumbled quite a bit in 2017 only to lose 5. And then brought it back down again with 9 in 2018 but happened to lose 7 this year. How, in two years, does he only lose 6 fumbles, only loses 5 when he fumbled 13 times in 2017 but then loses 7 out of 9 in 2018? In THREE years he lost 11 fumbles but this year he lost 7. The numbers dont add up. I told you before, if he was losing 7+ fumbles year after year, then yeah, he isnt good at protecting the football. But that didnt happen. Not even close. I'm basing my argument off of the numbers I posted which is that he is league average when it comes to fumble rate per passing attempt.

14.) Kirk Cousins- Fumbles every 67.3 attempts