Vikings Message Board.Com

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 9:58 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2019 9:54 pm

The author was comparing Cousins with other top 10 passer rating QBs who had bad run games and a bad defense. I can't see Brees, Rodgers, or Wilson not making the playoffs with a top 3 defense and Diggs and Thielen to throw the ball too can you?

Again, I feel like you’re digging here. Aaron Rodgers won 6 games this year. SIX! His defense was at league average. They were 18th in total defense. 12th against the pass and 22nd against the run. So ok, their run defense was weak. He has one of the better WRs in the game in Adams along with graham, Cobb and a few that contributed here and there. He also had the 7th best OL according to PFF. Their run game was underrated because they did what we did and never ran the ball. They were 2nd in YPC at 5.0. Only team ahead of them was Carolina at 5.1. So let’s not sit here and act like Aaron Rodgers had nothing around him. That’s the “BEST” QB in the game we’re talking here. And he won 6 games and was also DRASTICALLY outplayed by Kirk cousins both times they faced each other. Not trying to compare those two but it’s more than just “having talent around you”. You need a lot to fall into place to make a run in this league. You don’t just throw all the talent in one room and automatically win a SB. Everyone is drooling over the Browns this year but I don’t think they will be nearly as good as people think. People are already pegging them to be in the running for the AFC championship game. They won’t touch KC or NE if you ask me. Idk if they could even beat a team like Indy or Pitt (although Pitt always struggles with them whether they are good or 0-16).

Point is, it’s not just about talent on your roster. There are SO many other things that need to go your way other than just a talented roster. And Aaron Rodgers still had plenty of talent around him to at least get to the playoffs and he couldn’t even get close. I get so ticked off when I see the packers are always predicted to finish better than us or are the favorites when we play each other. We have had Rodgers number as of late. We’ve lost to the packers ONE time since 2015. The guy struggles to beat us anymore and Zim has figured him out. No less I get sick of hearing he’s the best in the game. I honestly think he’s past that point right now. He definitely was for a stretch. But now, I think mahomes is without question. I think Brady is better as well. I would even say Brees and Luck too. I can tell you the guy won’t make another SB IMO

I don't think using a guy who made the playoffs for 8 straight seasons before getting hurt in 2017 is a good choice for this argument...

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 7:53 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 9:58 pm

Again, I feel like you’re digging here. Aaron Rodgers won 6 games this year. SIX! His defense was at league average. They were 18th in total defense. 12th against the pass and 22nd against the run. So ok, their run defense was weak. He has one of the better WRs in the game in Adams along with graham, Cobb and a few that contributed here and there. He also had the 7th best OL according to PFF. Their run game was underrated because they did what we did and never ran the ball. They were 2nd in YPC at 5.0. Only team ahead of them was Carolina at 5.1. So let’s not sit here and act like Aaron Rodgers had nothing around him. That’s the “BEST” QB in the game we’re talking here. And he won 6 games and was also DRASTICALLY outplayed by Kirk cousins both times they faced each other. Not trying to compare those two but it’s more than just “having talent around you”. You need a lot to fall into place to make a run in this league. You don’t just throw all the talent in one room and automatically win a SB. Everyone is drooling over the Browns this year but I don’t think they will be nearly as good as people think. People are already pegging them to be in the running for the AFC championship game. They won’t touch KC or NE if you ask me. Idk if they could even beat a team like Indy or Pitt (although Pitt always struggles with them whether they are good or 0-16).

Point is, it’s not just about talent on your roster. There are SO many other things that need to go your way other than just a talented roster. And Aaron Rodgers still had plenty of talent around him to at least get to the playoffs and he couldn’t even get close. I get so ticked off when I see the packers are always predicted to finish better than us or are the favorites when we play each other. We have had Rodgers number as of late. We’ve lost to the packers ONE time since 2015. The guy struggles to beat us anymore and Zim has figured him out. No less I get sick of hearing he’s the best in the game. I honestly think he’s past that point right now. He definitely was for a stretch. But now, I think mahomes is without question. I think Brady is better as well. I would even say Brees and Luck too. I can tell you the guy won’t make another SB IMO

I don't think using a guy who made the playoffs for 8 straight seasons before getting hurt in 2017 is a good choice for this argument...

So are you implying that since he got hurt in 2017, that's why he didnt make the playoffs this year? The reason you're saying he isnt a good example to use is because it doesnt help your argument. You say you cant see Rodgers missing the playoffs with this roster but it's not like his team was made up of a group of duds. No less he played a 3rd place schedule and still only pulled 6 wins. He could have made the playoffs 15 times in 16 years. Bottom line is, he's considered the "best" in the game (much better than Kirk Cousins), he had enough talent around him to at least get to the playoffs and didnt even come close. And was also drastically outplayed by the guy you cant stand twice. The whole point behind the argument is that whether he has all the talent in the world around him or none at all, it doesnt guarantee a playoff spot or success for that matter. Like I said above, there are so many other factors that go into a TEAM making the playoffs. It's not just their QB and how he plays. You were the one that brought up Rodgers and other QBs. There were times Kirk Cousins was playing great and the D crapped the bed. There were times where the D was playing great and the offense crapped the bed. It wasnt often where both were playing great during the same game. But again, I dont care what kind of talent Cousins had around him. Same goes for Rodgers.

Bottom line is, just because you have talent on your team doesnt mean you're going to make the playoffs. Pittsburgh was loaded with talent last year and couldnt get to the playoffs. It happens to teams every year. Case Keenum's 2017 season (coaches, OL, defense, running game, schedule, etc) is nowhere near comparable to Kirk Cousins 2018 season (coaches, OL, defense, running game, schedule, etc). You just sit there and say "well Case did this so Kirk should do that". No! That's not how it works. Things just arent that easy. There is so much more that goes into it. You look at one thing, record. I could pick you apart on records that didnt add up on a year by year basis for probably every team in the NFL at one point or another. You basing your opinion on records and not factoring in anything else is what's not a good choice for this argument.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 8:11 am

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 7:53 am

I don't think using a guy who made the playoffs for 8 straight seasons before getting hurt in 2017 is a good choice for this argument...

So are you implying that since he got hurt in 2017, that's why he didnt make the playoffs this year? The reason you're saying he isnt a good example to use is because it doesnt help your argument. He could have made the playoffs 15 times in 16 years. Bottom line is, he's considered the "best" in the game (much better than Kirk Cousins), he had enough talent around him to at least get to the playoffs and didnt even come close. And was also drastically outplayed by the guy you cant stand twice. The whole point behind the argument is that whether he has all the talent in the world around him or none at all, it doesnt guarantee a playoff spot or success for that matter. Like I said above, there are so many other factors that go into a TEAM making the playoffs. It's not just their QB and how he plays. You were the one that brought up Rodgers and other QBs. There were times Kirk Cousins was playing great and the D crapped the bed. There were times where the D was playing great and the offense crapped the bed. It wasnt often where both were playing great during the same game. But again, I dont care what kind of talent Cousins had around him. Same goes for Rodgers.

Bottom line is, just because you have talent on your team doesnt mean you're going to make the playoffs. Pittsburgh was loaded with talent last year and couldnt get to the playoffs. It happens to teams every year. Case Keenum's 2017 season (coaches, OL, defense, running game, schedule, etc) is nowhere near comparable to Kirk Cousins 2018 season (coaches, OL, defense, running game, schedule, etc). You just sit there and say "well Case did this so Kirk should do that". No! That's not how it works. Things just arent that easy. There is so much more that goes into it. You look at one thing, record. I could pick you apart on records that didnt add up on a year by year basis for probably every team in the NFL at one point or another. You basing your opinion on records and not factoring in anything else is what's not a good choice for this argument.

I think the Packers are the least talented team in the division outside of Rodgers. Adams is an average WR with a different QB throwing him the football. Cobb is nothing. Graham is aging fast. They have an offensive line that is helped by non-calls by the refs and a mobile QB. It is a better line than we have, but it isn't elite.

They have the 22nd scoring defense in the NFL. Since scoring is the thing that actually wins games, that is all that matters in this discussion. Not how many yards they give up.

That coupled with a QB coming off a serious injury who wanted to get his coach fired, resulted in 6 wins.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 8:28 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 8:11 am

So are you implying that since he got hurt in 2017, that's why he didnt make the playoffs this year? The reason you're saying he isnt a good example to use is because it doesnt help your argument. He could have made the playoffs 15 times in 16 years. Bottom line is, he's considered the "best" in the game (much better than Kirk Cousins), he had enough talent around him to at least get to the playoffs and didnt even come close. And was also drastically outplayed by the guy you cant stand twice. The whole point behind the argument is that whether he has all the talent in the world around him or none at all, it doesnt guarantee a playoff spot or success for that matter. Like I said above, there are so many other factors that go into a TEAM making the playoffs. It's not just their QB and how he plays. You were the one that brought up Rodgers and other QBs. There were times Kirk Cousins was playing great and the D crapped the bed. There were times where the D was playing great and the offense crapped the bed. It wasnt often where both were playing great during the same game. But again, I dont care what kind of talent Cousins had around him. Same goes for Rodgers.

Bottom line is, just because you have talent on your team doesnt mean you're going to make the playoffs. Pittsburgh was loaded with talent last year and couldnt get to the playoffs. It happens to teams every year. Case Keenum's 2017 season (coaches, OL, defense, running game, schedule, etc) is nowhere near comparable to Kirk Cousins 2018 season (coaches, OL, defense, running game, schedule, etc). You just sit there and say "well Case did this so Kirk should do that". No! That's not how it works. Things just arent that easy. There is so much more that goes into it. You look at one thing, record. I could pick you apart on records that didnt add up on a year by year basis for probably every team in the NFL at one point or another. You basing your opinion on records and not factoring in anything else is what's not a good choice for this argument.

I think the Packers are the least talented team in the division outside of Rodgers. Adams is an average WR with a different QB throwing him the football. Cobb is nothing. Graham is aging fast. They have an offensive line that is helped by non-calls by the refs and a mobile QB. It is a better line than we have, but it isn't elite.

They have the 22nd scoring defense in the NFL. Since scoring is the thing that actually wins games, that is all that matters in this discussion. Not how many yards they give up.

That coupled with a QB coming off a serious injury who wanted to get his coach fired, resulted in 6 wins.

lol I dont think you could have put more excuses into one post if you tried. Adams is an average WR?? I hope you're joking because last year, he lost Aaron Rodgers early week 6. And from week 6 until week 14 (Rodgers played week 15 and weeks 16 and 17 Adams didnt play), he went for 46 catches for 543 yards and 5 TDs in 8 weeks WITHOUT Aaron Rodgers. That's roughly 6 catches for 70 yards a game. And it wasnt just without Aaron Rodgers, it was with arguably the worst starting QB in the NFL last year in Brett Hundley.

Dont sit there and act like Davante Adams is a product of Aaron Rodgers. That was Jordy Nelson. Davante Adams is actually a legit WR. Jordy Nelson was made by Aaron Rodgers. That was proved in 2017. Nelson had around 6 catches a game for about 70 yards during the first 5 weeks of the year WITH Rodgers. He also had 6 TDs in 5 weeks. Then Rodgers goes down in week 6 and Jordy Nelson doesnt score another TD the rest of the year, averages about 3 catches a game and didnt break 33 yards the rest of the season. Davante Adams played 1 less game than Jordy Nelson on the year and nearly doubled him in yards, had over 20 catches more and 4 TDs more (and Nelson only got his 6 when Rodgers was playing). THAT is an average WR with a different QB throwing him the football. Not Davante Adams.

And then....

They have an offensive line that is helped by non-calls by the refs and a mobile QB.

Dude what?.... I can tell you right now you didnt watch enough Packer games to know if there were enough non-calls or not by the Refs given you think Davante Adams is an average WR. The Adams comment was a dead giveaway that you dont pay enough attention to that team to know anything at all about non-calls somehow helping their OL. That's like someone coming on here saying Thielen and Diggs arent as good as people think because they push off all the time and the only reason they have good numbers is because there are non-calls by the refs. If I ever posted that poor of an argument I'd kick myself off this board.

That coupled with a QB coming off a serious injury who wanted to get his coach fired, resulted in 6 wins.

Again...what? But I guess everything that happened with us didnt matter this year right? Our joke of an OC, our joke of an OL, Sparano's passing? Griffen going AWOL? Our schedule? And so on.....

You sound like today's media. NFL Network, ESPN, Good Morning Football, beat writers, etc. All they do is make excuses for Aaron Rodgers. That's exactly what you're doing right now. Giving excuses as to why Aaron Rodgers didnt make the playoffs. But you dont want to consider anything with Kirk Cousins other than your own opinion that he sucks. But you'll make up every excuse in the book to tell me why Aaron Rodgers didnt make the playoffs. Even going to the great length of saying Adams is an average WR without Rodgers. You take all that into consideration for Rodgers but dont take anything into consideration for Cousins. This was my point from the beginning dude. There is so much more that should be taken into consideration than just record. You refuse to consider that for Cousins but take everything into consideration for Rodgers. You've grown to hate Cousins so much that the guy could win 2 straight SBs and you'd still find a reason to hate the guy. We get it, you dont like Cousins, that's fine. But your arguments are so bias that it's tough to consider what you're saying or take you seriously

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 2:50 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 8:28 am

I think the Packers are the least talented team in the division outside of Rodgers. Adams is an average WR with a different QB throwing him the football. Cobb is nothing. Graham is aging fast. They have an offensive line that is helped by non-calls by the refs and a mobile QB. It is a better line than we have, but it isn't elite.

They have the 22nd scoring defense in the NFL. Since scoring is the thing that actually wins games, that is all that matters in this discussion. Not how many yards they give up.

That coupled with a QB coming off a serious injury who wanted to get his coach fired, resulted in 6 wins.

lol I dont think you could have put more excuses into one post if you tried. Adams is an average WR?? I hope you're joking because last year, he lost Aaron Rodgers early week 6. And from week 6 until week 14 (Rodgers played week 15 and weeks 16 and 17 Adams didnt play), he went for 46 catches for 543 yards and 5 TDs in 8 weeks WITHOUT Aaron Rodgers. That's roughly 6 catches for 70 yards a game. And it wasnt just without Aaron Rodgers, it was with arguably the worst starting QB in the NFL last year in Brett Hundley.

Dont sit there and act like Davante Adams is a product of Aaron Rodgers. That was Jordy Nelson. Davante Adams is actually a legit WR. Jordy Nelson was made by Aaron Rodgers. That was proved in 2017. Nelson had around 6 catches a game for about 70 yards during the first 5 weeks of the year WITH Rodgers. He also had 6 TDs in 5 weeks. Then Rodgers goes down in week 6 and Jordy Nelson doesnt score another TD the rest of the year, averages about 3 catches a game and didnt break 33 yards the rest of the season. Davante Adams played 1 less game than Jordy Nelson on the year and nearly doubled him in yards, had over 20 catches more and 4 TDs more (and Nelson only got his 6 when Rodgers was playing). THAT is an average WR with a different QB throwing him the football. Not Davante Adams.

And then....

They have an offensive line that is helped by non-calls by the refs and a mobile QB.

Dude what?.... I can tell you right now you didnt watch enough Packer games to know if there were enough non-calls or not by the Refs given you think Davante Adams is an average WR. The Adams comment was a dead giveaway that you dont pay enough attention to that team to know anything at all about non-calls somehow helping their OL. That's like someone coming on here saying Thielen and Diggs arent as good as people think because they push off all the time and the only reason they have good numbers is because there are non-calls by the refs. If I ever posted that poor of an argument I'd kick myself off this board.

That coupled with a QB coming off a serious injury who wanted to get his coach fired, resulted in 6 wins.

Again...what? But I guess everything that happened with us didnt matter this year right? Our joke of an OC, our joke of an OL, Sparano's passing? Griffen going AWOL? Our schedule? And so on.....

You sound like today's media. NFL Network, ESPN, Good Morning Football, beat writers, etc. All they do is make excuses for Aaron Rodgers. That's exactly what you're doing right now. Giving excuses as to why Aaron Rodgers didnt make the playoffs. But you dont want to consider anything with Kirk Cousins other than your own opinion that he sucks. But you'll make up every excuse in the book to tell me why Aaron Rodgers didnt make the playoffs. Even going to the great length of saying Adams is an average WR without Rodgers. You take all that into consideration for Rodgers but dont take anything into consideration for Cousins. This was my point from the beginning dude. There is so much more that should be taken into consideration than just record. You refuse to consider that for Cousins but take everything into consideration for Rodgers. You've grown to hate Cousins so much that the guy could win 2 straight SBs and you'd still find a reason to hate the guy. We get it, you dont like Cousins, that's fine. But your arguments are so bias that it's tough to consider what you're saying or take you seriously

Talk about bias, you just wrote a novel about how great the Green Bay Packers are(aside from their overrated QB) to defend your
.500 QB.

That was...quite the read.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 7:07 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 2:50 pm

lol I dont think you could have put more excuses into one post if you tried. Adams is an average WR?? I hope you're joking because last year, he lost Aaron Rodgers early week 6. And from week 6 until week 14 (Rodgers played week 15 and weeks 16 and 17 Adams didnt play), he went for 46 catches for 543 yards and 5 TDs in 8 weeks WITHOUT Aaron Rodgers. That's roughly 6 catches for 70 yards a game. And it wasnt just without Aaron Rodgers, it was with arguably the worst starting QB in the NFL last year in Brett Hundley.

Dont sit there and act like Davante Adams is a product of Aaron Rodgers. That was Jordy Nelson. Davante Adams is actually a legit WR. Jordy Nelson was made by Aaron Rodgers. That was proved in 2017. Nelson had around 6 catches a game for about 70 yards during the first 5 weeks of the year WITH Rodgers. He also had 6 TDs in 5 weeks. Then Rodgers goes down in week 6 and Jordy Nelson doesnt score another TD the rest of the year, averages about 3 catches a game and didnt break 33 yards the rest of the season. Davante Adams played 1 less game than Jordy Nelson on the year and nearly doubled him in yards, had over 20 catches more and 4 TDs more (and Nelson only got his 6 when Rodgers was playing). THAT is an average WR with a different QB throwing him the football. Not Davante Adams.

And then....



Dude what?.... I can tell you right now you didnt watch enough Packer games to know if there were enough non-calls or not by the Refs given you think Davante Adams is an average WR. The Adams comment was a dead giveaway that you dont pay enough attention to that team to know anything at all about non-calls somehow helping their OL. That's like someone coming on here saying Thielen and Diggs arent as good as people think because they push off all the time and the only reason they have good numbers is because there are non-calls by the refs. If I ever posted that poor of an argument I'd kick myself off this board.



Again...what? But I guess everything that happened with us didnt matter this year right? Our joke of an OC, our joke of an OL, Sparano's passing? Griffen going AWOL? Our schedule? And so on.....

You sound like today's media. NFL Network, ESPN, Good Morning Football, beat writers, etc. All they do is make excuses for Aaron Rodgers. That's exactly what you're doing right now. Giving excuses as to why Aaron Rodgers didnt make the playoffs. But you dont want to consider anything with Kirk Cousins other than your own opinion that he sucks. But you'll make up every excuse in the book to tell me why Aaron Rodgers didnt make the playoffs. Even going to the great length of saying Adams is an average WR without Rodgers. You take all that into consideration for Rodgers but dont take anything into consideration for Cousins. This was my point from the beginning dude. There is so much more that should be taken into consideration than just record. You refuse to consider that for Cousins but take everything into consideration for Rodgers. You've grown to hate Cousins so much that the guy could win 2 straight SBs and you'd still find a reason to hate the guy. We get it, you dont like Cousins, that's fine. But your arguments are so bias that it's tough to consider what you're saying or take you seriously

Talk about bias, you just wrote a novel about how great the Green Bay Packers are(aside from their overrated QB) to defend your
.500 QB.

That was...quite the read.

And that was what you took from that post?

You just said their OL isn’t that good but they just get away with no-calls?? I’ve literally never heard of such an excuse for any one player or unit in my life. So of course I’m going to question that.

And sorry but if you don’t think Davante Adams is a legit WR no matter the QB then idk what to tell you. Of course Aaron Rodgers makes him look better. No different than Kirk Cousins making diggs and Thielen look better than case did. But both Thielen, diggs and Adams were successful with weaker QBs which shows they are truly legit WRs. No different than a DeAndre Hopkins when he was stuck with Keenum, Yates and a few other high school QBs. He still put up numbers. That’s the definition of a good WR. Unlike someone such as jordy Nelson who couldn’t produce without Aaron Rodgers. He’s a WR that was made by a QB and solely relies on that QB to be successful. No different than guys like Wes Welker, Austin Collie, Brandon Stokley, Mike Wallace, etc. Heck even Sidney Rice. They couldn’t succeed without Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Big Ben or Brett Favre. They either fizzled out of the league or sucked wherever they went. That’s Jordy Nelson through and through. Not Davante Adams

You provided zero facts with either of those opinions. You haven’t been able to back up your point since I’ve started in on Cousins the past few days. You went completely blank when I addressed the fumbling argument you tried to bark about. You’ve gone practically blank on what I’ve addressed in this thread. I hate the packers just as much as the next guy but I’m not going to sit there and say their entire team sucks and they don’t have any players worth a crap other than Rodgers. Or that they have a worse team than the Lions. I can also sit here and tell you areas the packers are weak at. But I’m going to be realistic about it. I follow the entire nfl just as much as I follow the Vikings. The packers aren’t a great team loaded with talent. Never once did I say that so you can stop trying to turn this into that. I addressed your opinion on Davante Adams, their OL and Aaron Rodgers. Davante Adams is a legit WR, I just proved that to you. Their OL is at worst, top 12 in the nfl. I don’t need to prove that to you when you’re going as low as the excuse of saying they just get away with no calls. And yes I believe Rodgers is overrated at this point in his career. I think QBs have passed him. He’s still one of the best in the NFL but he’s not THE best. He was at one point but not anymore IMO but that argument is a whole different animal.

But regardless, my ENTIRE point was, looking at a teams record by year is a poor, poor way to judge a QB. Drew Brees is arguably one of the best in the game but missed the playoffs 2014, 2015 and 2016. Finished 7-9 three straight years in a row. Went from 11-5 to 7-9 for 3 years back to 11-5. But ya know what, there was a lot that went on during that time. Losing Sean Payton to suspension was one of the main things. If all that stuff counts for the drew brees’ and Aaron Rodgers’ of the world, why doesn’t it for Kirk Cousins?? I know why and it’s because you’ve already made up your mind about him. Which again, if you don’t like him, so be it but be realistic and fair in your arguments because if you aren’t, that’s when I’m going to call you out on them. Which is exactly why I’ve brought up what I have to you regarding fumbles, record, etc. You don’t address my recent posts in any sort of way other than critiquing what I wrote and how I wrote it. Or don’t respond because you realize you don’t have an argument like in the fumble discussion. And it’s literally because you don’t have an argument. I can sit here and discuss plenty of mistakes cousins made last year, along with plenty of mistakes every player on this team made, including the coaches. But I’m not going to sit here and read false information like his “fumbling issue”, your on the surface argument of comparing 2017 and 2018 records when there are so many other factors that were on the table, saying Davante Adams isn’t a good WR regardless of QB or that the packers OL isn’t any good because they just get away with “no calls by the refs”. They are poor arguments and/or false information. I’m being realistic about it and providing facts to support it. I’m not going to just say the packers have zero talent other than Rodgers and make excuses just because I hate the packers and I’m a Vikings fan. I’m putting the reality of it out there. Not just going off on a limb and basing everything off of my bias opinion

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 10:24 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 7:07 pm
Talk about bias, you just wrote a novel about how great the Green Bay Packers are(aside from their overrated QB) to defend your
.500 QB.

That was...quite the read.

And that was what you took from that post?

You just said their OL isn’t that good but they just get away with no-calls?? I’ve literally never heard of such an excuse for any one player or unit in my life. So of course I’m going to question that.

And sorry but if you don’t think Davante Adams is a legit WR no matter the QB then idk what to tell you. Of course Aaron Rodgers makes him look better. No different than Kirk Cousins making diggs and Thielen look better than case did. But both Thielen, diggs and Adams were successful with weaker QBs which shows they are truly legit WRs. No different than a DeAndre Hopkins when he was stuck with Keenum, Yates and a few other high school QBs. He still put up numbers. That’s the definition of a good WR. Unlike someone such as jordy Nelson who couldn’t produce without Aaron Rodgers. He’s a WR that was made by a QB and solely relies on that QB to be successful. No different than guys like Wes Welker, Austin Collie, Brandon Stokley, Mike Wallace, etc. Heck even Sidney Rice. They couldn’t succeed without Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Big Ben or Brett Favre. They either fizzled out of the league or sucked wherever they went. That’s Jordy Nelson through and through. Not Davante Adams

You provided zero facts with either of those opinions. You haven’t been able to back up your point since I’ve started in on Cousins the past few days. You went completely blank when I addressed the fumbling argument you tried to bark about. You’ve gone practically blank on what I’ve addressed in this thread. I hate the packers just as much as the next guy but I’m not going to sit there and say their entire team sucks and they don’t have any players worth a crap other than Rodgers. Or that they have a worse team than the Lions. I can also sit here and tell you areas the packers are weak at. But I’m going to be realistic about it. I follow the entire nfl just as much as I follow the Vikings. The packers aren’t a great team loaded with talent. Never once did I say that so you can stop trying to turn this into that. I addressed your opinion on Davante Adams, their OL and Aaron Rodgers. Davante Adams is a legit WR, I just proved that to you. Their OL is at worst, top 12 in the nfl. I don’t need to prove that to you when you’re going as low as the excuse of saying they just get away with no calls. And yes I believe Rodgers is overrated at this point in his career. I think QBs have passed him. He’s still one of the best in the NFL but he’s not THE best. He was at one point but not anymore IMO but that argument is a whole different animal.

But regardless, my ENTIRE point was, looking at a teams record by year is a poor, poor way to judge a QB. Drew Brees is arguably one of the best in the game but missed the playoffs 2014, 2015 and 2016. Finished 7-9 three straight years in a row. Went from 11-5 to 7-9 for 3 years back to 11-5. But ya know what, there was a lot that went on during that time. Losing Sean Payton to suspension was one of the main things. If all that stuff counts for the drew brees’ and Aaron Rodgers’ of the world, why doesn’t it for Kirk Cousins?? I know why and it’s because you’ve already made up your mind about him. Which again, if you don’t like him, so be it but be realistic and fair in your arguments because if you aren’t, that’s when I’m going to call you out on them. Which is exactly why I’ve brought up what I have to you regarding fumbles, record, etc. You don’t address my recent posts in any sort of way other than critiquing what I wrote and how I wrote it. Or don’t respond because you realize you don’t have an argument like in the fumble discussion. And it’s literally because you don’t have an argument. I can sit here and discuss plenty of mistakes cousins made last year, along with plenty of mistakes every player on this team made, including the coaches. But I’m not going to sit here and read false information like his “fumbling issue”, your on the surface argument of comparing 2017 and 2018 records when there are so many other factors that were on the table, saying Davante Adams isn’t a good WR regardless of QB or that the packers OL isn’t any good because they just get away with “no calls by the refs”. They are poor arguments and/or false information. I’m being realistic about it and providing facts to support it. I’m not going to just say the packers have zero talent other than Rodgers and make excuses just because I hate the packers and I’m a Vikings fan. I’m putting the reality of it out there. Not just going off on a limb and basing everything off of my bias opinion

I am not sure what false information you think I am sharing. I have opinions that might differ than yours and that you don't like, but they are just as valid as anyone else's.

Your problem is that you change people's arguments into something they aren't. It is my opinion that record and success in the playoffs is the most important thing. It is a fact that not all fumbles are recovered at the same rate. It is my opinion that the Packers were the least talented team in the division. You change those in your head to mean I wouldn't like Cousins even if he won a SB (despite a thread where I said they should extend him if does just that), and that I feel the Packers have zero talent on their team.

It is something all of us do to a certain extent, but you take it to extremes. It is a weak tactic and it is pretty sad that you feel the need to employ it so often. Doesn't speak well for your reasoning skills.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 7:46 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 10:24 pm

And that was what you took from that post?

You just said their OL isn’t that good but they just get away with no-calls?? I’ve literally never heard of such an excuse for any one player or unit in my life. So of course I’m going to question that.

And sorry but if you don’t think Davante Adams is a legit WR no matter the QB then idk what to tell you. Of course Aaron Rodgers makes him look better. No different than Kirk Cousins making diggs and Thielen look better than case did. But both Thielen, diggs and Adams were successful with weaker QBs which shows they are truly legit WRs. No different than a DeAndre Hopkins when he was stuck with Keenum, Yates and a few other high school QBs. He still put up numbers. That’s the definition of a good WR. Unlike someone such as jordy Nelson who couldn’t produce without Aaron Rodgers. He’s a WR that was made by a QB and solely relies on that QB to be successful. No different than guys like Wes Welker, Austin Collie, Brandon Stokley, Mike Wallace, etc. Heck even Sidney Rice. They couldn’t succeed without Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Big Ben or Brett Favre. They either fizzled out of the league or sucked wherever they went. That’s Jordy Nelson through and through. Not Davante Adams

You provided zero facts with either of those opinions. You haven’t been able to back up your point since I’ve started in on Cousins the past few days. You went completely blank when I addressed the fumbling argument you tried to bark about. You’ve gone practically blank on what I’ve addressed in this thread. I hate the packers just as much as the next guy but I’m not going to sit there and say their entire team sucks and they don’t have any players worth a crap other than Rodgers. Or that they have a worse team than the Lions. I can also sit here and tell you areas the packers are weak at. But I’m going to be realistic about it. I follow the entire nfl just as much as I follow the Vikings. The packers aren’t a great team loaded with talent. Never once did I say that so you can stop trying to turn this into that. I addressed your opinion on Davante Adams, their OL and Aaron Rodgers. Davante Adams is a legit WR, I just proved that to you. Their OL is at worst, top 12 in the nfl. I don’t need to prove that to you when you’re going as low as the excuse of saying they just get away with no calls. And yes I believe Rodgers is overrated at this point in his career. I think QBs have passed him. He’s still one of the best in the NFL but he’s not THE best. He was at one point but not anymore IMO but that argument is a whole different animal.

But regardless, my ENTIRE point was, looking at a teams record by year is a poor, poor way to judge a QB. Drew Brees is arguably one of the best in the game but missed the playoffs 2014, 2015 and 2016. Finished 7-9 three straight years in a row. Went from 11-5 to 7-9 for 3 years back to 11-5. But ya know what, there was a lot that went on during that time. Losing Sean Payton to suspension was one of the main things. If all that stuff counts for the drew brees’ and Aaron Rodgers’ of the world, why doesn’t it for Kirk Cousins?? I know why and it’s because you’ve already made up your mind about him. Which again, if you don’t like him, so be it but be realistic and fair in your arguments because if you aren’t, that’s when I’m going to call you out on them. Which is exactly why I’ve brought up what I have to you regarding fumbles, record, etc. You don’t address my recent posts in any sort of way other than critiquing what I wrote and how I wrote it. Or don’t respond because you realize you don’t have an argument like in the fumble discussion. And it’s literally because you don’t have an argument. I can sit here and discuss plenty of mistakes cousins made last year, along with plenty of mistakes every player on this team made, including the coaches. But I’m not going to sit here and read false information like his “fumbling issue”, your on the surface argument of comparing 2017 and 2018 records when there are so many other factors that were on the table, saying Davante Adams isn’t a good WR regardless of QB or that the packers OL isn’t any good because they just get away with “no calls by the refs”. They are poor arguments and/or false information. I’m being realistic about it and providing facts to support it. I’m not going to just say the packers have zero talent other than Rodgers and make excuses just because I hate the packers and I’m a Vikings fan. I’m putting the reality of it out there. Not just going off on a limb and basing everything off of my bias opinion

I am not sure what false information you think I am sharing. I have opinions that might differ than yours and that you don't like, but they are just as valid as anyone else's.

Your problem is that you change people's arguments into something they aren't. It is my opinion that record and success in the playoffs is the most important thing. It is a fact that not all fumbles are recovered at the same rate. It is my opinion that the Packers were the least talented team in the division. You change those in your head to mean I wouldn't like Cousins even if he won a SB (despite a thread where I said they should extend him if does just that), and that I feel the Packers have zero talent on their team.

It is something all of us do to a certain extent, but you take it to extremes. It is a weak tactic and it is pretty sad that you feel the need to employ it so often. Doesn't speak well for your reasoning skills.

You specifically said Kirk Cousins is "horrible at portecting the football". And I proved that to be false. I mean have an opinion all you want on it but your argument was proved wrong. It's like having an opinion that the sky is red when really it's blue. You have your opinion but your opinion is proved to be false. I mean I'm not trying to burst your bubble but after you've continued to use it as leverage against Cousins, I decided to actually research it. And it proved to be inaccurate. I gotta agree with VikingVictorious when he said "Stump if you want to hold on to the negativity you will always find reasons that fit your thinking." You're so quick to point out that Cousins did this wrong and Cousins did that wrong but right when your assessment is questioned and proved to be false, you shrivel up like a prune. Simply because what you were complaing about wasnt correct. When that happens it doesnt really help your credibility.

And How am I suppose to "reason" with someone when they say the "Packers line isnt any good they just get a bunch of no-calls" and "Davante Adams is an average WR"?? I might hate the Packers but I know talent when I see it. No less the numbers prove it. I dont think many would "reason" with that. If you make a fair assessment of something and provide backing along with it, then yeah you're supporting your opinion and we can have a discussion if I was to disagree with it.

However, you arent bringing that into your assessments right now at all. That's like me saying, "Adam Thielen is an average WR". And when you question why I said that, my response is, "he gets a bunch of no-calls and pushes off all the time, I dont think he can get separation". Would you respond with "yeah you're right man, good point" or "I disagree but good effort!" ??? No you'd probably laugh in my face, throwing numbers in my face and fighting it and I hope you would if I made a ridiculous statement like that. That's how the Adams and Packers OL opinions are coming across. You've provided zero backing with either, zero facts with either, you've just made the statement and left it at that. You did the same with the Cousins fumbling thing. And now you're getting defensive that I'm confronting you about it. I mean I guess you can run and do your digging now but I pretty much dug up what was out there.

Since I joined this board in 2012 I've always been the same way (for the most part). If you are coming onto a message board like this one and you just make a statement that 1.) I disagree with and 2.) had zero backing behind it, then I'm going to question it. That's just me and that's the point of a message board. I guess it's a "weak tactic" in some eyes but that's just me. Sometimes I'll even question a post that does have a lot of backing behind it but maybe I can provide enough to defend my side of it. Either way, your post was filled with either false assessment or there wasnt backing behind it. That is why I questioned it. If a fan comes on here and says "Danielle Hunter isnt any good", then that fan better have some facts to support it because you're going to get called out by not just me but others as well. I mean I guess it comes down to if you're going to make a statement but cant back it, why say it? Why cause a stir when you have nothing to back an opinion up with? I'm just being realistic here. I've been called out for plenty of things on here before, especially when I first joined. But I always bring facts to the table with it. You cant just make a statement with no backing and expect people to flat out ignore it. I respect you and your opinion, I really do because I think you're a die hard fan but at the same time, if I see something that I dont agree with and it isnt supported, I'm going to question it.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 7:46 am
I am not sure what false information you think I am sharing. I have opinions that might differ than yours and that you don't like, but they are just as valid as anyone else's.

Your problem is that you change people's arguments into something they aren't. It is my opinion that record and success in the playoffs is the most important thing. It is a fact that not all fumbles are recovered at the same rate. It is my opinion that the Packers were the least talented team in the division. You change those in your head to mean I wouldn't like Cousins even if he won a SB (despite a thread where I said they should extend him if does just that), and that I feel the Packers have zero talent on their team.

It is something all of us do to a certain extent, but you take it to extremes. It is a weak tactic and it is pretty sad that you feel the need to employ it so often. Doesn't speak well for your reasoning skills.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 11:25 am You specifically said Kirk Cousins is "horrible at portecting the football". And I proved that to be false. I mean have an opinion all you want on it but your argument was proved wrong. It's like having an opinion that the sky is red when really it's blue. You have your opinion but your opinion is proved to be false. I mean I'm not trying to burst your bubble but after you've continued to use it as leverage against Cousins, I decided to actually research it. And it proved to be inaccurate. I gotta agree with VikingVictorious when he said "Stump if you want to hold on to the negativity you will always find reasons that fit your thinking." You're so quick to point out that Cousins did this wrong and Cousins did that wrong but right when your assessment is questioned and proved to be false, you shrivel up like a prune. Simply because what you were complaing about wasnt correct. When that happens it doesnt really help your credibility.

You didn't prove anyone wrong. He was top 5 in turnovers in the NFL last year, and that is horrible, is it not? You can have the opinion that he is just unlucky, but that is the reality. Just like it is a FACT that strip sacks are recovered by the offense and a much lower rate than botched snaps or hand offs.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 11:25 am And How am I suppose to "reason" with someone when they say the "Packers line isnt any good they just get a bunch of no-calls"

I don't know. How am I supposed to reason with someone who puts something in quotes that I never said?

Prime example of weak reasoning leading you to make things up.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 11:25 am Since I joined this board in 2012 I've always been the same way (for the most part). If you are coming onto a message board like this one and you just make a statement that 1.) I disagree with and 2.) had zero backing behind it, then I'm going to question it. That's just me and that's the point of a message board. I guess it's a "weak tactic" in some eyes but that's just me. Sometimes I'll even question a post that does have a lot of backing behind it but maybe I can provide enough to defend my side of it. Either way, your post was filled with either false assessment or there wasnt backing behind it. That is why I questioned it. If a fan comes on here and says "Danielle Hunter isnt any good", then that fan better have some facts to support it because you're going to get called out by not just me but others as well. I mean I guess it comes down to if you're going to make a statement but cant back it, why say it? Why cause a stir when you have nothing to back an opinion up with? I'm just being realistic here. I've been called out for plenty of things on here before, especially when I first joined. But I always bring facts to the table with it. You cant just make a statement with no backing and expect people to flat out ignore it. I respect you and your opinion, I really do because I think you're a die hard fan but at the same time, if I see something that I dont agree with and it isnt supported, I'm going to question it.

I more often than not backup my opinions with facts. If you choose to ignore the facts because they might go against your opinions, I can't help that.

I admit I didn’t provide stats to back-up my thoughts on Adams. I thought going from over 800 yards with Rodgers for a little less than half the season to 1.3K yards with Rodgers for an entire season was pretty self-explanatory, especially when you argued a guy with multiple better seasons than Adams ever had was “made by Rodgers”, because he lost a step in his 32nd year. Or maybe he really was “made by Rodgers” and was never that good. I honestly don’t care, just pointing out some inconsistencies in your opinions.

In reality, we both believe that the line, play calling, and run game wasn’t good enough last year to win with Cousins. You are okay with that because you don’t think any QB could have won with the Vikings last year, I am not because I think a great QB, not Cousins, but a great QB, would have had that team in the SB. So rip me for being too negative all you want, but it seems like I have a higher opinion of the team than you do.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 7:46 am You didn't prove anyone wrong. He was top 5 in turnovers in the NFL last year, and that is horrible, is it not? You can have the opinion that he is just unlucky, but that is the reality. Just like it is a FACT that strip sacks are recovered by the offense and a much lower rate than botched snaps or hand offs.

He fumbles the ball every 67.3 pass attempts. That's in the top half on the NFL when it comes to fumble rate. You specifically said he's horrible at protecting the football. That stat alone says the opposite. I don't understand why you aren't comprehending that? Also, prior to being in Minnesota, he's lost 11 fumbles in 3 years of starting in Washington. This year he lost 7 alone. You're really going to sit there and say all of the sudden this season, he's fumbling a certain way? This isn't a consistent thing over his career. He lost 3 fumbles, 3 fumbles and 5 fumbles. Then boom he loses 7 but he's horrible at protecting the football? If he was losing 6 to 7 balls a year due to fumbling then yeah, you have an argument. In 2015 and 2016, he fumbled the same amount of times he did this year....nine. Nobody was saying he was horrible at protecting the football then. Why? Because he only lost 3 both years. Thats around league average. Maybe even a little better than league average. But since he lost more this year, it's an easy stat for you to try and attack to support your argument. Like I said, if it was consistent, then you have an argument but it wasn't and you don't have an argument. Especially when he had one of the better fumbling rates in the NFL. I don't know how anyone can say a guy is horrible at protecting the football when he fumbles every 67 pass attempts. He was ahead of 12 starting NFL QBs, some very good ones by a mile. And those were only the guys that I put on that list. I can guarantee he has a better rate than many other QBs out there too. Your argument simply doesn't add up. The one random year he loses 7 fumbles, he's now all of the sudden horrible at protecting the football. Agree to disagree because you're never going to convince me, after seeing those numbers, that he is horrible at protecting the football. Especially when you see the numbers of other NFL QBs.

I don't know. How am I supposed to reason with someone who puts something in quotes that I never said?

You literally said they have an offensive line that is often helped by non-calls after I said they were the 7th best OL according to PFF. You said they are better than our OL but aren't elite. Did I say they were elite? Uh no. But if they are ranked as the 7th best OL and have been up there for quite some time they are pretty darn good if you ask me. That is just obvious.

Prime example of weak reasoning leading you to make things up.

So since I called you out for not backing up your posts that makes it "weak reasoning"? And make things up What on earth did I make up? I just think that you have your mind well made up regarding Cousins, Davante Adams, Aaron Rodgers (and the excuses provided) and the Packers in general and you didn't like being called to the carpet on it when you made some pretty bold statements that proved to be false. There wasn't a single thing "I made up". I put your statements on the table and provided facts as to why they weren't true.

I more often than not backup my opinions with facts. If you choose to ignore the facts because they might go against your opinions, I can't help that.

I admit I didn’t provide stats to back-up my thoughts on Adams. I thought going from over 800 yards with Rodgers for a little less than half the season to 1.3K yards with Rodgers for an entire season was pretty self-explanatory, especially when you argued a guy with multiple better seasons than Adams ever had was “made by Rodgers”, because he lost a step in his 32nd year. Or maybe he really was “made by Rodgers” and was never that good. I honestly don’t care, just pointing out some inconsistencies in your opinions.

I will say yeah you usually do bring along facts with your opinions on here. But for these ones specifically, you really didn't. At least not anything in depth. You admitted you didn't bring up anything with Adams, you gave Aaron Rodgers every excuse in the book to why he didnt not just miss the playoffs but not even come close, your "fact" for the Packers OL was that they are helped by non-calls from the refs (which for one, is not a fact) and you said Kirk Cousins was horrible at protecting the football and the fact you brought along with that was....he was top 5 in turnovers which is....an "on the surface fact." I could sit here and say Kirk Cousins was the 2nd most accurate QB in the NFL this year and try to defend him being a top 10 QB because of it. That's an "on the surface fact". You don't ever see me come on here trying to defend Cousins because he had a great completion percentage. I think it showed he was pretty accurate this year but I don't believe he is one of the most accurate QBs in the NFL. I would say he's in the top half somewhere BUT the stats showed he was #2. Well you're taking that path. You're saying that since he was top 5 in turnovers, that must mean he's horrible at protecting the football. You're adding 2 + 2. I didnt believe that (knew that there could have been a slight chance I was wrong) but wanted to research it before I posted anything and sure enough, that proved to be false.

As for Adams, he missed 2 games that year dude and had nearly 900 yards. If he played a full 16 games, he was going over 1000 yards. He played all 16 games WITH Rodgers in 2016 and nearly put up identical numbers WITHOUT Rodgers for over half the year AND missed 2 games that year. What's self explanatory about that is the guy doesnt need Aaron Rodgers to be successful. He proved that. But again this is another "on the surface fact" because you literally looked at his career stats online and developed your opinion from there. Similar to what you do with a teams record which I've said many of times, never tells the full story. Just like someones NFL.com stat line doesnt tell the whole story. YOU, especially, should know this because you jump down anyone and everyones throat for bringing up Kirk Cousins' stat line in 2018. But you have no problem doing it with other players or finding excuses for Aaron Rodgers not making the playoffs. Nobody can do it with Kirk Cousins because it contradicts your opinion. But you can do it for players like Aaron Rodgers and Davante Adams because....it does help your argument.

And you're really going to use the 32 year old excuse with Jordy Nelson man? Look at Jordy Nelsons numbers when Rodgers was playing in 2017. He had 6 fricken TDs in the first 5 games before Rodgers went down. After that, he never broke 35 yards in a game and never had a catch over 17 yards. He was getting at least one catch or more a game over 17 yards when Rodgers was playing. What are you going to say? That Nelson didnt lose a step early on but then lost won after week 5? No, he needed Rodgers to be successful and he didnt have him. As for Adams, he was averaging more catches that year WITHOUT Rodgers playing. He was averaging 5.75 catches per game without Rodgers and 4.6 with Rodgers playing. Then, to top it all off, Adams was averaging 57 yards a game WITH Rodgers and 68 yards a game WITHOUT Rodgers. So how can you possibly sit there and say Devante Adams is an average WR with any other QB?? He literally played BETTER without Rodgers in 2017. THAT's how good of a WR he is. It's not like his numbers were better with Rodgers and maybe close to that with another QB, they were literally better.

And then in the end, with their OL, I don't have much to say. If you're going to go to the great lengths of saying they looked better than they were because of non-calls by the refs, you have one of the poorest arguments I've ever seen before.

I just don't understand how you think you're making valid points in any of the 3 statements. Some you're really making no points. Others you're saying on the surface facts which anyone can do and then when someone digs deeper and proves them wrong, you for some reason still try to defend it. You just don't have enough to support what you're trying to say regarding those 3 areas.

How about this...Cousins was terrible at protecting the football last year. Perhaps most emblematic of Cousins performance last year was his flustered backward pass to the RB.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 11:10 pm

And then in the end, with their OL, I don't have much to say. If you're going to go to the great lengths of saying they looked better than they were because of non-calls by the refs, you have one of the poorest arguments I've ever seen before.

Thank you for actually going off what I wrote instead of what you thought you read.

I didn't go to great lengths. It was a single comment about how often their line gets away with holds that has been said millions of times on every Vikings, Lions, and Bears message board that ever existed. I will never say anything good about their line without that caveat of them getting away with holding and I don't know how any Viking fan can watch the Vikings play the Packers without screaming at their TV that the Packers are holding. In the end it doesn't matter though, since the argument is about how well the line protected the QB, and whether that is because of holds not called or perfectly legal pass blocking is irrelevant to the conversation.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 11:10 pm YOU, especially, should know this because you jump down anyone and everyones throat for bringing up Kirk Cousins' stat line in 2018. But you have no problem doing it with other players or finding excuses for Aaron Rodgers not making the playoffs.

I believe I did place blame on Rodgers for the 6 wins season. He was not 100% physically and was trying to get his coach fired A healthy, happy Rodgers in his prime might have had that team in the playoffs. Based on his career, that seems likely.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 11:10 pm And you're really going to use the 32 year old excuse with Jordy Nelson man? Look at Jordy Nelsons numbers when Rodgers was playing in 2017. He had 6 fricken TDs in the first 5 games before Rodgers went down. After that, he never broke 35 yards in a game and never had a catch over 17 yards. He was getting at least one catch or more a game over 17 yards when Rodgers was playing. What are you going to say? That Nelson didnt lose a step early on but then lost won after week 5? No, he needed Rodgers to be successful and he didnt have him. As for Adams, he was averaging more catches that year WITHOUT Rodgers playing. He was averaging 5.75 catches per game without Rodgers and 4.6 with Rodgers playing. Then, to top it all off, Adams was averaging 57 yards a game WITH Rodgers and 68 yards a game WITHOUT Rodgers. So how can you possibly sit there and say Devante Adams is an average WR with any other QB?? He literally played BETTER without Rodgers in 2017. THAT's how good of a WR he is. It's not like his numbers were better with Rodgers and maybe close to that with another QB, they were literally better.

Average starting WR #s without Rodgers in 2017 (16th in YPG), great WR #s with him in 2018 (5th in YPG). The numbers back me up. 68 YPG without Rodgers, 92 with. That with a much larger sample size that is more difficult to skew with a single outlier game. So you can go with the smaller sample size if you like, but I personally will go with the much more reliable larger one.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 7:54 am How about this...Cousins was terrible at protecting the football last year. Perhaps most emblematic of Cousins performance last year was his flustered backward pass to the RB.

Do I really have to show you the stat as well? That he fumbled on 67.3% of passing plays. Which is top 10-12 in the NFL?? I'm just going to take the time at some point today to put that number next to every NFL starter. Because he might be ranked even higher than I think. Just to show you how false your statements are by saying he's terrible at protecting the football. But keep sitting here and saying it I guess. Makes sense. Let's just pretend that stat doesnt exist, ignore it, do whatever we have to do just because it trumps any argument we're trying to have.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 8:21 am

fiestavike wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 7:54 am How about this...Cousins was terrible at protecting the football last year. Perhaps most emblematic of Cousins performance last year was his flustered backward pass to the RB.

Do I really have to show you the stat as well? That he fumbled on 67.3% of passing plays. Which is top 10-12 in the NFL?? I'm just going to take the time at some point today to put that number next to every NFL starter. Because he might be ranked even higher than I think. Just to show you how false your statements are by saying he's terrible at protecting the football. But keep sitting here and saying it I guess. Makes sense. Let's just pretend that stat doesnt exist, ignore it, do whatever we have to do just because it trumps any argument we're trying to have.

You can continue to mislead people with that stat, or you can be honest about it. Not all fumbles are the same, yet here you are pretending they are. Why won't you "dig deeper" on this one?

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 8:40 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2019 8:21 am

Do I really have to show you the stat as well? That he fumbled on 67.3% of passing plays. Which is top 10-12 in the NFL?? I'm just going to take the time at some point today to put that number next to every NFL starter. Because he might be ranked even higher than I think. Just to show you how false your statements are by saying he's terrible at protecting the football. But keep sitting here and saying it I guess. Makes sense. Let's just pretend that stat doesnt exist, ignore it, do whatever we have to do just because it trumps any argument we're trying to have.

You can continue to mislead people with that stat, or you can be honest about it. Not all fumbles are the same, yet here you are pretending they are. Why won't you "dig deeper" on this one?

It's not misleading at all. Yeah sure, some guys might fumble outside of the pocket or botch a snap here and there but lets be honest, how many NFL QBs botch snaps anymore? Very little. I remember a few of Cousins fumbles were outside of the pocket or on the run. It's a dead accurate statistic that proves your statement to be false. I dont get why you are fighting it. A fumble is a fumble. You're really going to sit there and tell me that the only reason Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, Pat Mahomes had more fumbles than Cousins was because they were botching snaps more and bobbling more hand offs than he was? That excuse destroys saying the missed calls by the refs is why the Packers OL was good this year. I didnt think anyone could beat that excuse but you just did if that's what you're going to say.

This is simply you once again, giving excuses for every other QB but those excuses arent allowed with Kirk Cousins in your book. You do this all the time. I honestly cant believe that you're sitting there trying to say I'M misleading people with Cousins fumbling rate stat that I figured out but you're going to practically say that Kirk Cousins didnt have unforced fumbles and other QBs did. TRUST ME, you dont watch football or other teams nearly enough to know if their QB had a bunch of unforced fumbles or not. Nobody does. No less, the amount of unforced fumbles in the NFL by a QB, is a pretty low percentage. AT MOST, any starting QB in the NFL has MAYBE one more "unforced fumble" than Cousins did. Two would be an absolute stretch and if anyone was at 2, it would be pretty rare. The funny thing is, YOU dont even know what the number is but you're sitting there acting like it's a proven fact lol and trying to use it against my statement that he's 10th best or better in the NFL in fumbling rate. When that is actually a provent fact. Man some of the stuff you pull out of the clouds just to defend your "Cousins was a bad signing" overall opinion, is just mind-blowing. Defending your opinion and backing it up is one thing and you've made some solid points in the past. But if anyone questions your opinion regarding Cousins and what he's good/bad at and you dont agree, you'd literally reach down into the satan's toilet to come up with a reason why you are right. At least I'm using actual statistics, doing some math over here and comparing him to other QB's. I dont know what you are doing at this point.

Either way, here are the fumble rates for all 32 QBs in the NFL in 2018 in order from best to worst:

Andy Dalton- Every 365.0 attempts (only fumbled once, missed a lot of the year)
Philip Rivers- Every 254.0 attempts (only fumbled twice, he's usually pretty prone to fumbles)
Tom Brady- Every 114.0 attempts
Aaron Rodgers- Every 99.5 attempts
Ben Roethlisberger- Every 96.4 attempts
Matt Stafford- Every 92.5 attempts
Andrew Luck- Every 91.3 attempts
Sam Darnold- Every 82.8 attempts
Eli Manning- Every 82.7 attempts
Cam Newton- Every 78.5 attempts
Mitch Trubisky- Every 72.3 attempts
Drew Brees- Every 69.8 attempts
Baker Mayfield- Every 69.4 attempts
Kirk Cousins- Every 67.3 attempts
Matt Ryan- Every 60.8 attempts
Deshaun Watson- Every 56.1 attempts
Ryan Tannehill- Every 54.8 attempts
Alex Smith- Every 54.7 attempts
Jameis Winston- Every 54.0 attempts
Case Keenum- Every 53.3 attempts
Pat Mahomes- Every 52.7 attempts
Blake Bortles- Every 50.4 attempts
Derek Carr- Every 46.1 attempts
Carson Wentz- Every 44.6 attempts
Dak Prescott- Every 43.8 attempts
Russell Wilson- Every 42.7 attempts
Jared Goff- Every 40.1 attempts
Josh Allen- Every 40.0 attempts
Josh Rosen- Every 39.3 attempts
Marcus Mariota- Every 36.7 attempts
Jimmy Garoppolo- Every 22.3 attempts
Lamar Jackson- Every 11.3 attempts

So as it sits, Kirk Cousins is slightly above league average at 14th in protecting the football. Guys ahead of him like Rivers and Eli are tough to judge because these were some of their best years by far where usually they are somewhat notorious for fumbling the football. Twist this any way you want, bring up your bogus unforced fumbling argument that you dont even have a stat for, whatever. Either way, this is a proven fact and Kirk Cousins is not "horrible" at protecting the football, otherwise he'd be right down towards the bottom of the list.