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I really don't understand why Patterson is going back to a trainer to get him in "peak physical condition" ... his physical condition isn't the problem and never has been.

Cliff wrote:I really don't understand why Patterson is going back to a trainer to get him in "peak physical condition" ... his physical condition isn't the problem and never has been.

Nevertheless, I think it's a positive thing for him to maintain it and try to improve it. After all, he's a professional athlete so staying in peak physical condition makes sense for him. His training sessions don't last the entire offseason so they don't preclude other work, study, etc. and to me, his willingness to engage in them shows some commitment to work and improve.

As we've been discussing all along, the nature of his problem(s) isn't 100% clear. Even Goessling opted for the relatively vague "That suggests the Vikings still aren't satisfied Patterson's attention to detail as a route runner and a receiver" in the quote Dead_Poet posted this morning. That implies to me that he doesn't really know either and that's been my frustration all along. What is it about his route-running and/or attention to detail that's so detrimental, that's holding him back, and what's been done about it? At this point, we don't know if Patterson needs to hit the playbook harder, work on his cuts, on using his hands, on his awareness in the open field... there's just no solid information. I wish we at least knew what they had him doing in camp and practices from July through December. For example, how often was he practicing with the receivers and when he did, with what unit? Once the season began, it almost felt like there was a media blackout when it came to Patterson.

Sorry, I know I've said all of the above before. I just wish whatever he needs to do was a little more clear than "There's times when the proof's got to be in the pudding. He's got to do this and if he doesn't do it, then that's what he's going to be - he's going to be a returner".

Cliff wrote:I really don't understand why Patterson is going back to a trainer to get him in "peak physical condition" ... his physical condition isn't the problem and never has been.

I'm sure it doesn't hurt (well it sounds like the actual training might). I'm not sure what the alternatives would be (other than working out in his own?). I don't even know if there's a such thing as a "route-running guru" or something he even could work with on a consistent basis? I don't know. I'm sure we'd all like to read that he's spending the offseason with someone like that, though. Though it's probably too late for that anyway.

Mothman wrote:What is it about his route-running and/or attention to detail that's so detrimental, that's holding him back, and what's been done about it? (

From what I've been able to glean from Zimmer/Turner it may boil down to not being at the right place at the right time (in addition to more precise things like the way he runs a route). There have been quotes from coaches regarding Patterson not running the right depth/timing has been off and there was the one play last preseason where Patterson ran the wrong route and Zimmer gave his "If I was a betting man..." quote.

I know, just more speculation, but that's what I've been able to infer from the little that has been said.

dead_poet wrote: From what I've been able to glean from Zimmer/Turner it may boil down to not being at the right place at the right time (in addition to more precise things like the way he runs a route). There have been quotes from coaches regarding Patterson not running the right depth/timing has been off and there was the one play last preseason where Patterson ran the wrong route and Zimmer gave his "If I was a betting man..." quote.

I remember that play. However, it was reported a little later Hill called an audible and Patterson didn't hear it., which is why they weren't on the same page. Maybe that was BS but that struck me as an understandable mistake.

I know, just more speculation, but that's what I've been able to infer from the little that has been said.

I remember the quotes you mentioned but weren't virtually all of those comments from 2014? Maybe the same problems persist but it frustrates me that he just went through another entire season with the team and we have no more information about his situation than Zimmer's comments during the summer (most of which were positive) and his vague quote at the end of the year.

Heck, the whole thing vexes me. At this point, despite hoping for more, I'm fully expecting another year of Patterson returning kicks followed by him signing with another team in free agency and once he's gone, maybe we'll get some answers. Even then, I doubt it.

I'd really like to know just who in "corners of the organization" is frustrated with Patterson not getting the ball. I can't shake the impression that we're looking at a situation where a player found himself in the coaching staff's "doghouse" and can't get out of it.

Mothman wrote:I remember that play. However, it was reported a little later Hill called an audible and Patterson didn't hear it., which is why they weren't on the same page. Maybe that was BS but that struck me as an understandable mistake.

It's possible. Unfortunately it's really not a good look for a guy in Patterson's situation. It strikes me as one of those things that would just completely frustrate Zimmer/Turner, especially if these kinds of things were also happening in practice. Wasn't there also some chatter about Patterson complaining about having to play in the final preseason game or something?

I remember the quotes you mentioned but weren't virtually all of those comments from 2014? Maybe the same problems persist but it frustrates me that he just went through another entire season with the team and we have no more information about his situation than Zimmer's comments during the summer (most of which were positive) and his vague quote at the end of the year.

I'm not sure about the dates of the quotes. There's no doubt in my mind that he's improved in those areas but what I question is how far he's come (enough?) and his consistency in those areas. The comments Zimmer had even early this year about Patterson needing to know if he's going to be "The Flash" or not are ones that make you wonder if there's a practice/work ethic thing at work, too.

Heck, the whole thing vexes me. At this point, despite hoping for more, I'm fully expecting another year of Patterson returning kicks followed by him signing with another team in free agency and once he's gone, maybe we'll get some answers. Even then, I doubt it.

Yeah, I'm still waiting for Frazier to talk about Harvin. I'm sure we'll all be cringing when Patterson signs a contract with another team in a year, probably hoping he doesn't turn into an offensive weapon the Vikings were unable/unwilling to make more of an effort to work in. I'm sure we're not alone in worrying that we'll see Patterson offensive highlights in another uniform.

Related question: How many receivers aside from Wright have the Vikings drafted have signed a second contract with the team? As good as Rick seems to have "hit" on Diggs and to an extent Wright, I'm not sure his track record with drafting receivers is all that good. In fact, it might be one of his biggest weaknesses (aside from the quarterback position). Perhaps that might mean Patterson just may not have what it takes and will have a career more in line with Hester.

Edit: Here are the receiver drafted by the Vikings (2007-2015) and the round selected. * indicates a "hit" and + indicates received second contract with the Vikings

Sidney Rice (2)*
AUNDRAE ALLISON (5)
CHANDLER WILLIAMS (7)
JAYMAR JOHNSON (6)
Percy Harvin (1)*
STEPHEN BURTON (7)
JARIUS WRIGHT (4)*+
GREG CHILDS (4)
CORDARRELLE PATTERSON (1)
STEFON DIGGS (5)*

Rice was a hit in talent but a bust in ability to stay healthy. Without the injury issues, Rice probably would've received an extension. In hindsight, Rick did the right thing and saved the team a ton of cash. Harvin was a hit in talent but a bust in attitude and, to some extent, injury. Save the latter two and he also would've received an extension. Again, Rick made the right choice and not only saved the team millions, but also acquired draft picks that, in hindsight, ended up being highway robbery. He got good value/production from Wright, and the Childs pick was a classic "high-risk/high-reward" situation. He had talent but couldn't stay healthy. Patterson (right now) looks like the only big swing/miss (which looks even worse when you consider what we gave up to move to get him, which perhaps prevented us from getting a quality offensive lineman!). The biggest problem I see is actually the lack of top-end receivers actually being drafted. In 9 years there have been only three receivers drafted within the first three rounds. And it's hard to say without getting full GM control until 2012 how to really break that down in terms of who Rick may have wanted but ultimately the team couldn't reach a consensus.

Bottom line: I think it's time to take another swing and draft a higher-round receiver again (if the pick warrants it).

I'd really like to know just who in "corners of the organization" is frustrated with Patterson not getting the ball. I can't shake the impression that we're looking at a situation where a player found himself in the coaching staff's "doghouse" and can't get out of it.

That'd be quite interesting to know. I bet you could rule out Zimmer/Turner and maybe a few position coaches. Maybe it's players. Maybe it's Cordarrelle Patterson? He's firmly in the corner of the organization. Maybe with a "dunce" hat on.

Hopefully with the new coaches there will be some head butting with positive results.

Mothman wrote: Nevertheless, I think it's a positive thing for him to maintain it and try to improve it. After all, he's a professional athlete so staying in peak physical condition makes sense for him. His training sessions don't last the entire offseason so they don't preclude other work, study, etc. and to me, his willingness to engage in them shows some commitment to work and improve.

As we've been discussing all along, the nature of his problem(s) isn't 100% clear. Even Goessling opted for the relatively vague "That suggests the Vikings still aren't satisfied Patterson's attention to detail as a route runner and a receiver" in the quote Dead_Poet posted this morning. That implies to me that he doesn't really know either and that's been my frustration all along. What is it about his route-running and/or attention to detail that's so detrimental, that's holding him back, and what's been done about it? At this point, we don't know if Patterson needs to hit the playbook harder, work on his cuts, on using his hands, on his awareness in the open field... there's just no solid information. I wish we at least knew what they had him doing in camp and practices from July through December. For example, how often was he practicing with the receivers and when he did, with what unit? Once the season began, it almost felt like there was a media blackout when it came to Patterson.

Sorry, I know I've said all of the above before. I just wish whatever he needs to do was a little more clear than "There's times when the proof's got to be in the pudding. He's got to do this and if he doesn't do it, then that's what he's going to be - he's going to be a returner".

He definitely needs to keep in shape physically but it seems obvious that whatever he's doing to keep physically fit is working, so that being the focus of his off season seems like a strange choice. Granted we don't know exactly what he needs to work on, but do you really think it has much to do with him physically? I can't see that. It's gotta be something with technique or knowledge and it doesn't seem like that trainer is a particularly good choice if that's the case.

Then again, maybe his issues getting jammed on the line have to do with his strength. That was one of his biggest problems.

I'm sure it doesn't hurt (well it sounds like the actual training might). I'm not sure what the alternatives would be (other than working out in his own?). I don't even know if there's a such thing as a "route-running guru" or something he even could work with on a consistent basis? I don't know. I'm sure we'd all like to read that he's spending the offseason with someone like that, though. Though it's probably too late for that anyway.

I was hoping he'd work with someone who understands what it's like to be an NFL receiver at least to some degree. Someone who can give him tips that are more applicable to football. Basically what the coaching staff tried to set him up with last year. I bet they could still arrange something like that.

Whatever he does I hope it pans out. So much potential.

dead_poet wrote:It's possible. Unfortunately it's really not a good look for a guy in Patterson's situation. It strikes me as one of those things that would just completely frustrate Zimmer/Turner, especially if these kinds of things were also happening in practice.

It was definitely not the kind of mistake he could afford to make, even if it was understandable.

Wasn't there also some chatter about Patterson complaining about having to play in the final preseason game or something?

I never gave any credence to it. Patterson didn't voice a word of complaint about it publicly. Daily Norseman reported that he was "angry" about having to play but that was based off a comment by Greg Coleman, (former Vikes punter and sideline reporter on the radio broadcasts of the games) who said "One guy that was not real happy about knowing that he had to play the game was Cordarrelle Patterson." Assuming that's true, it was always a comment I considered open to interpretation.

I'm not sure about the dates of the quotes. There's no doubt in my mind that he's improved in those areas but what I question is how far he's come (enough?) and his consistency in those areas. The comments Zimmer had even early this year about Patterson needing to know if he's going to be "The Flash" or not are ones that make you wonder if there's a practice/work ethic thing at work, too.

Who knows? That's the whole problem (from our side of things). We just don't have good information about this situation.

Yeah, I'm still waiting for Frazier to talk about Harvin.

That makes the point perfectly.

I'm sure we'll all be cringing when Patterson signs a contract with another team in a year, probably hoping he doesn't turn into an offensive weapon the Vikings were unable/unwilling to make more of an effort to work in. I'm sure we're not alone in worrying that we'll see Patterson offensive highlights in another uniform.

No, probably not... he'll probably be starring in the Panthers offense in 2 years.

Rice was a hit in talent but a bust in ability to stay healthy. Without the injury issues, Rice probably would've received an extension. In hindsight, Rick did the right thing and saved the team a ton of cash. Harvin was a hit in talent but a bust in attitude and, to some extent, injury. Save the latter two and he also would've received an extension. Again, Rick made the right choice and not only saved the team millions, but also acquired draft picks that, in hindsight, ended up being highway robbery. He got good value/production from Wright, and the Childs pick was a classic "high-risk/high-reward" situation. He had talent but couldn't stay healthy. Patterson (right now) looks like the only big swing/miss (which looks even worse when you consider what we gave up to move to get him, which perhaps prevented us from getting a quality offensive lineman!).

I see Harvin as a swing and a miss too, although there are different ways to interpret that pick. They obviously got some good production from him at times but I don't think he ever played a full 16 game season in 4 years and his attitude problems, which were apparent before he was drafted, ultimately led to him being traded. I have to believe when the team invested a first round pick in him they were hoping for a foundation player at the position, not a problematic talent with route-running limitations. He was productive enough that maybe "miss" is too strong for him. He's more like a ball fouled off into the stands.

In a way, you could look at that list of drafted receivers (thanks for posting it) and say the only true "hit" so far is Wright because he's the only one that earned a second contract . Rice had one really strong year and again, I doubt that's what the Vikes had in mind when they drafted him in R2. One great season in 4 and then letting him walk after his rookie contract isn't exactly a success story. It wasn't a total failure either because he was terrific in 2009. Maybe he's more like a base hit...

The biggest problem I see is actually the lack of top-end receivers actually being drafted. In 9 years there have been only three receivers drafted within the first three rounds. And it's hard to say without getting full GM control until 2012 how to really break that down in terms of who Rick may have wanted but ultimately the team couldn't reach a consensus.

Bottom line: I think it's time to take another swing and draft a higher-round receiver again (if the pick warrants it).

I think that makes sense too and I won't be surprised if that's the direction they go in R1.

That'd be quite interesting to know. I bet you could rule out Zimmer/Turner and maybe a few position coaches. Maybe it's players. Maybe it's Cordarrelle Patterson? He's firmly in the corner of the organization. Maybe with a "dunce" hat on.

Ha! That could be... I wonder if it's Rick Spielman or perhaps some scouts? Maybe other players? It might be the janitor that feeds everybody stories as an "inside source" all the time!

Who's our WR's coach these days and why isn't he GLUED to Patterson those first 3 years? I love Zim but this seems to be the one thing I don't agree with, the tough love "it's up to him to figure it out" stance. I get that approach for the defensive players I suppose because we know Zim has a proven track record of getting the knowledge and technique across so if somethings wrong it's probably with the player. On the offense side, I guess I just have a little more concern that maybe we don't know what the hell we're doing over there.

It's interesting to note that Maryland has WR coach keenan mccardell, 2 time probowler and 2 time superbowl champ, where Diggs went to school. Diggs is already super refined and yet Patterson hasn't made any progress what so ever in 3 years. It's not just that though, apparently he's actually gotten worse because he was effective his first year. I think that's the thing that strikes me as most odd, in 3 years, nothing!

It is what it is at this point but it's the offseason and I felt like #### about it again! I'm sure it's speilman who would be frustrated that he isn't used heh.

mondry wrote:Who's our WR's coach these days and why isn't he GLUED to Patterson those first 3 years?

It's still George Stewart.

Cliff wrote:He definitely needs to keep in shape physically but it seems obvious that whatever he's doing to keep physically fit is working, so that being the focus of his off season seems like a strange choice

I think this is a big part of what he's doing to stay physically fit now.

Granted we don't know exactly what he needs to work on, but do you really think it has much to do with him physically? I can't see that. It's gotta be something with technique or knowledge and it doesn't seem like that trainer is a particularly good choice if that's the case.

Then again, maybe his issues getting jammed on the line have to do with his strength. That was one of his biggest problems.

Good point. The training might help him make cleaner cuts and such too.

I was hoping he'd work with someone who understands what it's like to be an NFL receiver. Someone who can give him tips about how to not get jammed off the line, for example. Basically what the coaching staff tried to set him up with last year. Even if it was a guy of his choosing instead.

I imagine he could still do that. This training didn't fill his entire offseason last year so it probably won't this year either.

I was hoping he'd work with someone who understands what it's like to be an NFL receiver at least to some degree. Someone who can give him tips that are more applicable to football. Basically what the coaching staff tried to set him up with last year. I bet they could still arrange something like that.

I would think so. I was wondering during the season why they didn't bring in someone like that to work with him. If they felt it was worth doing in the offseason, and that didn't happen, why not make it happen? I wonder if it was been discussed. Maybe Patterson really does have an attitude that doesn't merit that kind of extra attention but if not, it seems like it would be worth going the extra mile to try developing a former first round pick with a ton of talent. If Stewart can't be glued to him as Mondry suggested (since Stewart has other WRs to coach too) I'd bring in someone who can, at least for a month or so of intense, focused work on whatever is holding him back. I don't think the CBA allows that during the offseason but during the regular season, I'm pretty sure it would have been possible.

IMO he won't do the work Zimmer ask him to do..

I hop I am wrong and he turns out to be an awesome wide out. He has the size speed and ability
to be great..

The turn this convo has taken has really got me wondering about the personnel decisions on offense.
Also, comparing and contrasting the production and 'improvement' of the WR corp vs the O-line, makes me wonder how Stewart kept his job this off-season.
The draft list just reinforces my belief that Spielman, more often than not, pulls the trigger on the upside athlete vs the guy who looks more NFL ready, from the fundamental standpoint. And that's not necessarily a negative trait, provided you have a skilled coaching staff. I'm doubting the latter on that side of the ball...at nearly every position too.
I'm putting a lot of my eggs in the Sparano/Shurmur basket in hopes that what they bring are some serious intangibles that this staff might be lacking.

I've expressed my opinion about Patterson (and Johnson) enough that everyone probably knows where I stand by now. In short, I believe they should have been played last year. Maybe not started but still played. So much for that.

The only thing I want to add is given Patterson's kick return abilities and the impact it has on the team when he scores a TD, I think the Vikings really need to hang onto him. I still believe he could help the passing game but that aside, folks, he's a freakin' terror as a kick returner. That's important. Why let some other NFL team have the best kick returner in the league?