Check Down Charlie

[Cliff]

After 22 starts, Ponder isn't really much of a mystery anymore.

He has a weak arm (and he knows it).
He is not very accurate, even on short passes.
He stares down receivers and fails to find open ones.
He doesn't have good pocket presence.
He crumbles under pressure.

He does have a hot girlfriend, though.

Except for the games where he has been able to throw long passes with accuracy. Or like the first half of the season where he maintained a 75% completion rate (it's still 63% which is a 10% increase from last season).

If 22 starts is enough for you to make a judgement that's fine ... but he'll get to actually complete an entire season before the staff gives up on him our opinions aside.

[losperros]

This has become a sort of urban legend. The only team that ever "shut him down" was Chicago. He still went 17/32 for 200 yds. and 2 TD's (passing) with 1 INT. The Vikes lost 17-13. They stopped him from running, but he threw the ball pretty well.

I documented all of Webb's regular-season appearances earlier in this thread. Webb has done very well in relief and as a starter... he is a different kind of threat and creates all kinds of problems for defenses. He has a waaaaaay stronger arm than Ponder and he's not chicken like Ponder... He is worth another look as our QB. We will never know what he can do if we don't play him. If he sucks, we know we have to move on and find two QB's.

Webb becoming a super hero every time he plays has become an urban myth as well. While I freely admit that he hasn't started more than a couple of games, I've never seen him demonstrate the passing abilities needed if this team seriously wants a franchise QB. If Ponder hasn't proved himself either, then so be it, but neither has Webb. That's my point.

As for Infinity's viewpoint that one doesn't know what Webb is going to do when he gets the ball, that's because he doesn't know what he's going to do. He seems to take the snap and look around for a play to emerge, which might work for Alabama-Birmingham but doesn't work in the NFL. One of the things the coaches have said about Webb is that he can't handle the entire playbook. We saw the same thing from another outstanding athlete who couldn't make it as a franchise QB in Tarvaris Jackson. OTOH, it's good that the Vikings have kept working Webb as a QB, because it is likely that he's improved. I hope so for his and the team's sake. And who knows? Maybe it will pay off big time.

I like Webb and would love to see him succeed. Then again, I like Ponder and wish the same thing for him. Either way it would be good for the team. And it's team first for me. Maybe the Vikings will try Ponder this year and decide that he won't work and then try Webb next season. If that's what they want to do, that's what they'll do. What I don't want them to do is have a roster full of backup QBs.

[Just Me]

I think Ponder will and should finish the season as the starter. But if he can't cut it, I personally don't see any other franchise QB possibility on the present roster. YMMV.

This is what I'm saying. I want Ponder to finish the year. Not because I'm a Ponder "fan" either. I don't wan't to have TJ part II because we never gave this guy (Ponder) a chance. Like it or not, he's played (overall -stats) better than last year. If he truly is as bad as some believe, he'll tank the rest of the season and his overall stats will show he "is who we thought he was" and we can move on.

Suppose we sub Webb in now and he wins a game and plays so poorly the next two that Ponder finds himself in the game for the last game or two and the Vikings win convincingly. Now we have the whole - "didn't give him a fair shot" arguments all over again. I want him (Ponder) to succeed. Barring that, I want him to fail so totally and miserably, there is no doubt we need to go in a different direction...

[soflavike]

This is what I'm saying. I want Ponder to finish the year. Not because I'm a Ponder "fan" either. I don't wan't to have TJ part II because we never gave this guy (Ponder) a chance. Like it or not, he's played (overall -stats) better than last year. If he truly is as bad as some believe, he'll tank the rest of the season and his overall stats will show he "is who we thought he was" and we can move on.

Suppose we sub Webb in now and he wins a game and plays so poorly the next two that Ponder finds himself in the game for the last game or two and the Vikings win convincingly. Now we have the whole - "didn't give him a fair shot" arguments all over again. I want him (Ponder) to succeed. Barring that, I want him to fail so totally and miserably, there is no doubt we need to go in a different direction...

I hear what you're saying, but the flip-side is that we have seen what we have in Ponder for 22 games now: an inconsistent, mediocre passer. Some of us feel it's important to get a feel for what we have in Webb as well. We have been "developing" the kid for three seasons and we need to know whether to keep him around or look elsewhere. They aren't even putting him into the game for a drive or two in garbage time. Maybe he would be terrible, maybe brilliant... maybe something in between, but at least we could see if he's developed.

[mosscarter]

lets get one thing straight, webb is as bad or worse than ponder. as usual, this organization is a mess at the qb position and it will take years to fix.

[soflavike]

lets get one thing straight, webb is as bad or worse than ponder. as usual, this organization is a mess at the qb position and it will take years to fix.

IMO, there is not enough data to make that statement yet.

[mansquatch]

My questions for the Bench Ponder Bandwagon:

1.) Do you think that Ponder is capable of playing better than we have seen this season?

If yes, then why do you want to bench him? Do you think benching him will have a positive impact on his development?

If No, then why do you discount his improvement from last year and suddenly assign a ceiling to his performance after 11 games this season?

Also, if No, why do you believe he has reached the peak of his ability as an NFL QB?

Note that if you do not think he has reached his peak, then such an opinion is somewhat at odds with an answer of No to the original question. Holders of this paradox should feel free to ponder it in their respone. (I made a funny)

[mosscarter]

not enough evidence? joe webb played one decent game against the eagles two years ago, in which they didn't even play their starters. ponder has now had about 21 starts, and he looks like a high school qb. might i ask, what more evidence do you need at this point?

[mondry]

My questions for the Bench Ponder Bandwagon:

1.) Do you think that Ponder is capable of playing better than we have seen this season?

If yes, then why do you want to bench him? Do you think benching him will have a positive impact on his development?

If No, then why do you discount his improvement from last year and suddenly assign a ceiling to his performance after 11 games this season?

Also, if No, why do you believe he has reached the peak of his ability as an NFL QB?

Note that if you do not think he has reached his peak, then such an opinion is somewhat at odds with an answer of No to the original question. Holders of this paradox should feel free to ponder it in their respone. (I made a funny)

I'm not necessarily a ponder hater but I think the idea behind that camp is even if he's playing slightly better, it ultimately doesn't matter if his ceiling isn't far off from this level of play. Guys like Sanchez or Joey harrington can "improve" but never become Tom Brady so if you think Ponder is in that group I could see wanting to move on.

I think Ponder, barring a couple more 50 yard passing days, should get one more year and the front office needs to make every move possible to get him a big #1 WR and more consistent offensive line play for an absolute no excuses season. If he fails then we will have everything in place for the next young QB to be tested in ideal circumstances. Right now I think the offense just has far too many problems to accurately get a good picture of a 2nd year QB.

[Crax]

My questions for the Bench Ponder Bandwagon:

I'm not particularly on the "bench" bandwagon as I don't believe much in the backups as the answer either. I"m more of the "find a quality guy next year to compete for 1st string"

1.) Do you think that Ponder is capable of playing better than we have seen this season?

Against a decent defense? Sure, he could have a good game here and there.

If yes, then why do you want to bench him? Do you think benching him will have a positive impact on his development?

I don't really care about benching him either way, I'm fine if he plays the remainder of the season. I'm ready to give up on Ponder overall though, so I really don't care about his development as a backup QB all that much.

If No, then why do you discount his improvement from last year and suddenly assign a ceiling to his performance after 11 games this season?

Also, if No, why do you believe he has reached the peak of his ability as an NFL QB?

I wasn't sold on Ponder in college, and after over a season worth of starts, I don't believe in him. Could he get better? Sure, it wouldn't surprise me. He might be able to be a good game manager. Feels like a ceiling of current Alex Smith. Smith has been better than Ponder this season and is still getting switched out. It's not all that surprising to me. The league is more of a passing league now than it was with the Bucs/Ravens and I don't believe that is a viable model to follow for a championship team.

Do I believe Ponder will ever be a premiere QB? No, I do not. While people can bring up first year stat comparisons with other now elite QB's, it's not just stats. My personal opinion of watching ponder is that he won't really be more than a game manager. He'll have a great game once in awhile, but guys like Dilfer, Brad Johnson, etc. occasionally had those games and I've never considered them elite QB's. Ponder doesn't have "it". I realize that's nebulous and hard to define, but you can watch certain QB's and just feel like you're watching someone great or has the potential to be great. I don't feel that way with Ponder. It's may be too early to tell with guys like Wilson or Kapernick, but they seem to have the potential. I can already see it in guys like Luck and RG3. Maybe some of them won't work out, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did. With Ponder, I'd be shocked if 5 years from now he was a top 5 qb in the league.

The goal is to win the SB. I believe you need an elite QB to do so and I don't believe ponder will ever be more than average or slightly above average. He's below average now and while he could improve, I just don't ever see him being great.

[S197]

If No, then why do you discount his improvement from last year and suddenly assign a ceiling to his performance after 11 games this season?

I think they should continue to play Ponder but I wanted to look at the stats through 11 games played (compared to 11 games last year, with 10 starts).

Percentage completion has improved from 54.3% to 63.5%. He has more yardage, 2,186 vs 1,853 but also more attempts 359 vs 291. Over both periods he has 13 TD passes, although he has 9 interceptions this year vs 13 this time last year. His QB rating is an average of 82.0 compared to 70.1 last year. He's been sacked 27 times compared to 30 last year.

So initially it looks like improvement. However, he was knocked out early in the Bears game last year so that skews the stats a bit. Also, as we know he had a very good start to the year with a 70%+ completion percentage and 100+ QB rating. However, in four out of the last five games his completion percentage was 47.1%, 54.3%, 50.0%, and 51.2%. In those games his QB rating was 35.5, 74.8, 37.3, and 58.2. He did have one good game during this 5-week stretch against Detroit.

Based on what I can see, it depends on how you define improvement. Yes, based on 11 games, Ponder has improved. However, he has also clearly regressed over the last five games. Obviously stats don't show everything but I think this is why there's disagreement on Ponder's improvement. Ideally, you'd want to see a young QB improve over the course of the season. Ponder has so far done the opposite, coming out very strong but dropping off rather substantially as of late.

[losperros]

I'm not necessarily a ponder hater but I think the idea behind that camp is even if he's playing slightly better, it ultimately doesn't matter if his ceiling isn't far off from this level of play. Guys like Sanchez or Joey harrington can "improve" but never become Tom Brady so if you think Ponder is in that group I could see wanting to move on.

I think Ponder, barring a couple more 50 yard passing days, should get one more year and the front office needs to make every move possible to get him a big #1 WR and more consistent offensive line play for an absolute no excuses season. If he fails then we will have everything in place for the next young QB to be tested in ideal circumstances. Right now I think the offense just has far too many problems to accurately get a good picture of a 2nd year QB.

Interesting views in both paragraphs. I have no idea what Ponder's learning curve will ultimately be, so I don't know where his ceiling is and I don't want to make a guess. Not yet, anyway. OTOH, the Sanchez/Harrington example is duly noted and valid.

I'd be upset if the Vikings didn't give Ponder at least the rest of this season to show marked improvement. I mean, this is a R1 draft pick investment that was brought into the team to learn and then be the franchise QB. I like your suggestion for upgrading the WR corps (which I believe needs more than just a big #1 WR) and the OL. Even if Ponder isn't the guy, the next candidate will be insulated with better talent around him. It would help Adrian Peterson's game as well.

[mosscarter]

a decent game here and there is NOT GOOD ENOUGH. brees, brady, rogers: they have better than average games each week. the only thing ponder has done over 20 plus starts, is prove he does not have what it takes. i've said it all along, you ponder supporters can hang onto blind hope if it makes you feel better, this kid will never succeed in a starting position. he had his chance, its time to move on to someone who can handle the job.

[chicagopurple]

I think the ONE thing everyone on this string can agree on is that NEITHER our QB OR our recievers are much of a threat. which begs the question: What the hell was Little Boy Leslie thinking with his game plan, Ignoring the best friggin RB in the league and being pass happy all day long?!?!?!?!

[soflavike]

My questions for the Bench Ponder Bandwagon:

1.) Do you think that Ponder is capable of playing better than we have seen this season?

Not in this league.

If No, then why do you discount his improvement from last year and suddenly assign a ceiling to his performance after 11 games this season?

What improvement? He can't complete passes longer than 10 yards and he wets his pants under pressure. His improvement in completion percentage might have something to do with the eleventy-billion bubble screens and 2-yard passes he's been throwing... and many of his passing yards are YAC, thanks to Percy Harvin.

Also, if No, why do you believe he has reached the peak of his ability as an NFL QB?

Because he's chickenshit... the main problem is in his head.

Note that if you do not think he has reached his peak, then such an opinion is somewhat at odds with an answer of No to the original question. Holders of this paradox should feel free to ponder it in their respone. (I made a funny)

No paradox here.