Vikings Message Board.Com

VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:09 pm
Stump, Cousins can do that too.

Sure, there is no guarantee he will do it. There are plenty of reasons to believe he won't.

But if Foles and Flacco prove anything, it is that under the right circumstances anything is possible. All things considered, I'd rather take that as the moral of this story and head into this season with some optimism given the strength of the overall team than head into it consigned to believe that no matter how good the overall team is, they have no chance at winning a Superbowl with Cousins.

CharVike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:23 pm He did something that pissed them off when he was in Washington. Maybe beating out RG ME pissed some media people off.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:27 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:23 pm He did something that pissed them off when he was in Washington. Maybe beating out RG ME pissed some media people off.

Nah, it was probably the complete lack of success against winning teams.

CharVike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:25 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:27 pm
Nah, it was probably the complete lack of success against winning teams.

There are currently 6 active NFL quarterbacks with winning records against winning teams.
Ben Roethlisberger
Jimmy Garoppolo
Lamar Jackson
Patrick Mahomes
Russell Wilson
Tom Brady

Based on that Jimmy G is the guy to get. He's already got one foot out the door. A big time winner against the top teams and his own team traded the farm for a new QB. Maybe his wins had more to do with his defense than him. When he went to the Super Bowl Cousins and Rodgers didn't light that D up. Both looked like they didn't belong in the NFL. To much pressure. Like all QBs it's hard to play the same when the heat is coming.

Additionally, Rodgers is 5-23 against winning teams since 2012 — the same record as Kirk Cousins.Sep 15, 2019

Never would have thought that to be true.

Rodgers is 5-4 against winning teams the last two seasons. He beat Cousins winning team for 2 of those in 2019. Rodgers is a sure fire HOF player and it looks like beating winning teams is not his specialty. Didn't ever think of him as a loser. But it's true. Maybe that's why they picked a QB in the 1st round. Meanwhile back on the farm Speilman has our next guy waiting in the wings.

CharVike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:25 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:27 pm
Nah, it was probably the complete lack of success against winning teams.

There are currently 6 active NFL quarterbacks with winning records against winning teams.
Ben Roethlisberger
Jimmy Garoppolo
Lamar Jackson
Patrick Mahomes
Russell Wilson
Tom Brady

Based on that Jimmy G is the guy to get. He's already got one foot out the door. A big time winner against the top teams and his own team traded the farm for a new QB. Maybe his wins had more to do with his defense than him. When he went to the Super Bowl Cousins and Rodgers didn't light that D up. Both looked like they didn't belong in the NFL. To much pressure. Like all QBs it's hard to play the same when the heat is coming.

Additionally, Rodgers is 5-23 against winning teams since 2012 — the same record as Kirk Cousins.Sep 15, 2019

Never would have thought that to be true.

Rodgers is 5-4 against winning teams the last two seasons. He beat Cousins winning team for 2 of those in 2019. Rodgers is a sure fire HOF player and it looks like beating winning teams is not his specialty. Didn't ever think of him as a loser. But it's true. Maybe that's why they picked a QB in the 1st round. Meanwhile back on the farm Speilman has our next guy waiting in the wings.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:51 am

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:41 pm
There are multiple teams that are probably a QB away from competing for the SB. The Vikings are one of those teams.

Okay, but how could the Vikings win the SB with the Quarterback they have?

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:58 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:25 pm
There are currently 6 active NFL quarterbacks with winning records against winning teams.
Ben Roethlisberger
Jimmy Garoppolo
Lamar Jackson
Patrick Mahomes
Russell Wilson
Tom Brady

Based on that Jimmy G is the guy to get. He's already got one foot out the door. A big time winner against the top teams and his own team traded the farm for a new QB. Maybe his wins had more to do with his defense than him. When he went to the Super Bowl Cousins and Rodgers didn't light that D up. Both looked like they didn't belong in the NFL. To much pressure. Like all QBs it's hard to play the same when the heat is coming.

Additionally, Rodgers is 5-23 against winning teams since 2012 — the same record as Kirk Cousins.Sep 15, 2019

Never would have thought that to be true.

Rodgers is 5-4 against winning teams the last two seasons. He beat Cousins winning team for 2 of those in 2019. Rodgers is a sure fire HOF player and it looks like beating winning teams is not his specialty. Didn't ever think of him as a loser. But it's true. Maybe that's why they picked a QB in the 1st round. Meanwhile back on the farm Speilman has our next guy waiting in the wings.

CharVike I need clarification here. Is Rodgers is 5-23 against winning teams from 2012 thru Sept 15 of 19, but 5-4 since? 10-27 total from 2012 to present?

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:11 am

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:58 pm
CharVike I need clarification here. Is Rodgers is 5-23 against winning teams from 2012 thru Sept 15 of 19, but 5-4 since? 10-27 total from 2012 to present?

That was since 2012 when Cousins entered the NFL.
Aaron Rodgers: Record against winning teams

By
Dominique Clare
February 12, 2021

Aaron Rodgers has been dominating the league for a long time. He is coming off an MVP season at 37 years old. He is still searching for his second Super Bowl championship which is the only thing holding back his legacy from being compared to the likes of Tom Brady. If he follows in the footsteps of Brady, he still has plenty of time left to add to his legacy.

Let’s take a look at how many times the Green Bay Packers won games against teams with a winning record with Aaron Rodgers as their starting quarterback.

I started to dive into this stat for every quarterback because the new hot argument is to say that a certain quarterback didn’t beat anyone good. I often see people use this argument to say players like Kirk Cousins and Matthew Stafford are not good and just put up empty stats.

First off and most importantly, quarterback wins are a team statistic. Secondly, very few quarterbacks in the NFL have a winning record against teams who finished the season above .500 in the league.

What is Aaron Rodgers’ record against winning teams?
Since entering the NFL in 2005, Aaron Rodgers is 36-43-1 (.456) against teams that finished the season with a winning record.

In 2020, MVP winner Aaron Rodgers was 2-2 (.500) against winning teams as the starting quarterback.

Titans (win)
Colts (loss)
Buccaneers (loss)
Saints (win)
In 2019, Aaron Rodgers was 3-2 (.600) against winning teams as the starting quarterback.

Cheifs (win)
Vikings (win)
Eagles (loss)
49ers (loss)
Vikings (win)
What quarterbacks have a winning record against winning teams?
There are currently 6 active NFL quarterbacks with winning records against winning teams.

Ben Roethlisberger
Jimmy Garoppolo
Lamar Jackson
Patrick Mahomes
Russell Wilson
Tom Brady
You can digest that information on your own. The only thing I want you to take away from this is that it is extremely rare to have a winning record against teams that finished the season with a winning record.
I didn't write this stuff. I only posted it because Cousins is labeled a loser and some posters knock others because like me we are happy with him. Even Watson isn't called a loser. He put up a 4-12 record. He didn't elevate that team. This year the great Dak is back and needs to beat out Washington a 7-9 division winner. He has a much easier road than Cousins or Mond or whoever else plays for us this year. That's only my opinion. Others might feel differently. If our D sucks again we won't compete for the Super Bowl. They upgraded it so maybe it's good enough.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:21 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:14 am

OK. If that's the approach, then I think it's possible for Cousins to be a 'top 5 QB' statistically speaking and maybe we're in contention.

But I'm going to say those stats are pretty random and its just an avg. of teams which have won. It's an average which represents correlation not causation. Having a top 8 offense and a top 5 QB by some statistical measure is good, and is certainly indicates a good outcome, but the goal is to win games, to win plays, to win matchups, not to rise up the statistical charts. That's just correlation with how games are actually won. It doesn't cause any success at all. Its a backward form of analysis.

My worry remains the inability of the offense to produce against the leagues better defenses, and against more physical front seven units. Can our offense win those games? those plays? those matchups? The smaller, athletic OL we employ has not faired well against powerful defensive linemen. Kirk has not faired well under resulting pressure, having less time, having to throw into tighter coverages with anticipation, keeping his composure. None of that seems likely to dramatically change this season.

Defensively, my worry is that the team not be good enough to hold the line and keep the Vikings in the game against those opponents. Of those two, the shutdown defense seems more realistic than the offense raising their level against top competition. The defense has seen most of the offseason additions and our headcoach does have a track record of fielding competent defensive units. I think Zimmer will need to be willing to figure out how to let his defenders play more one gap, downhill football, where everyone knows their role and can really attack in order to have much hope of achieving the kind of defense I think it would take to win it all this year.

I think the focus on Cousins is a red herring despite the stats.

If the Vikings are going to get to and win a Superbowl, they'll do it because they can run the ball consistently on downs 1 and 2, and they can defend the run consistently on downs 1 and 2.

If they do that, they create favorable options on down 3 that don't put too much of the burden on the QB and passing game to keep drives going, while on defense they create favorable defensive situations on down 3 that vastly increase the chances they'll get off the field and get the ball back in the hands of their offense.

If they can do that, Cousins doesn't have to be a hero. That doesn't mean he doesn't have to perform, but he doesn't have to be a hero and pull rabbits out of his hat for the team to win.

So the question for me is, does this Vikings team have the pieces in place to be top 10 rushing on downs 1 and 2 and top 10 run defense on those same downs?

I think they do. We'll have to see it on the field, but it should be pretty evident pretty quickly if they do in fact have the pieces necessary to accomplish those two things.

And if they do, Cousins is going to look a lot better even to those who think he's not all that good.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:16 am

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:11 am
That was since 2012 when Cousins entered the NFL.
Aaron Rodgers: Record against winning teams

By
Dominique Clare
February 12, 2021

Aaron Rodgers has been dominating the league for a long time. He is coming off an MVP season at 37 years old. He is still searching for his second Super Bowl championship which is the only thing holding back his legacy from being compared to the likes of Tom Brady. If he follows in the footsteps of Brady, he still has plenty of time left to add to his legacy.

Let’s take a look at how many times the Green Bay Packers won games against teams with a winning record with Aaron Rodgers as their starting quarterback.

I started to dive into this stat for every quarterback because the new hot argument is to say that a certain quarterback didn’t beat anyone good. I often see people use this argument to say players like Kirk Cousins and Matthew Stafford are not good and just put up empty stats.

First off and most importantly, quarterback wins are a team statistic. Secondly, very few quarterbacks in the NFL have a winning record against teams who finished the season above .500 in the league.

What is Aaron Rodgers’ record against winning teams?
Since entering the NFL in 2005, Aaron Rodgers is 36-43-1 (.456) against teams that finished the season with a winning record.

In 2020, MVP winner Aaron Rodgers was 2-2 (.500) against winning teams as the starting quarterback.

Titans (win)
Colts (loss)
Buccaneers (loss)
Saints (win)
In 2019, Aaron Rodgers was 3-2 (.600) against winning teams as the starting quarterback.

Cheifs (win)
Vikings (win)
Eagles (loss)
49ers (loss)
Vikings (win)
What quarterbacks have a winning record against winning teams?
There are currently 6 active NFL quarterbacks with winning records against winning teams.

Ben Roethlisberger
Jimmy Garoppolo
Lamar Jackson
Patrick Mahomes
Russell Wilson
Tom Brady
You can digest that information on your own. The only thing I want you to take away from this is that it is extremely rare to have a winning record against teams that finished the season with a winning record.
I didn't write this stuff. I only posted it because Cousins is labeled a loser and some posters knock others because like me we are happy with him. Even Watson isn't called a loser. He put up a 4-12 record. He didn't elevate that team. This year the great Dak is back and needs to beat out Washington a 7-9 division winner. He has a much easier road than Cousins or Mond or whoever else plays for us this year. That's only my opinion. Others might feel differently. If our D sucks again we won't compete for the Super Bowl. They upgraded it so maybe it's good enough.

Yes, that article is very informative, but seriously flawed in its analysis.

https://sportsandfitnessdigest.com/acti ... ing-teams/

Top 10 active starting QBs in this stat in order:
Mahomes
Jackson
Brady
Jimmy G
Wilson
Rodgers
Goff
Allen
Prescott
Ryan

Aside from Goff and Jimmy G, that is your top 10 QBs in the NFL.

Bottom 10 QBs:
Jones
Stafford
Herbert
Cousins
Bridgewater
Darnold
Carr
Lock
Watson
Mayfield

Not necessarily all bottom 10 QBs, but with the exception of Watson, very average to bad starters.

Now let's explore the anomalies on that list. Goff and Jimmy G are in the top 10 but their teams are clearly elite talentwise, a indicator that yes, teams matter. Trubisky is pretty high on the list as well, carried by a very good defense. Mariotta I can't explain why his win % is so good. I didn't think those TN teams were all that great, and Mariotta isn't that good of a QB. Maybe he is the anti-Cousins and plays much better against winning teams? On the flip side, Stafford has played on terrible teams his entire career. He is not completely absolved of responsibility for his record against winning teams, but it shouldn't be that low with his talent. Cousins? He hasn't played on teams as good as Goff has most of his career, but the Vikings and Redskins aren't exactly the Lions.

So while like every stat there are anomalies and false positives, most of those are easy to explain and this stat is a strong indicator for who the great QBs are in the NFL.

As for Rodgers, it is interesting that Rodgers is so low considering how good his teams have been throughout the years. Maybe that explains why he has only gone to the SB when he has had the #1 defense? Your stat since 2012 is incorrect however.

Just going through his wins from 2012-2015 he beat these teams with a winning record:
MN
Hou
Det
NE
Sea
KC
MN

I stopped when I hit 7 wins, but I knew that number was complete BS because there was no tie in the stat and the Vikings in 2018 (a winning team) tied them.

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:45 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:16 am

Yes, that article is very informative, but seriously flawed in its analysis.

https://sportsandfitnessdigest.com/acti ... ing-teams/

Top 10 active starting QBs in this stat in order:
Mahomes
Jackson
Brady
Jimmy G
Wilson
Rodgers
Goff
Allen
Prescott
Ryan

Aside from Goff and Jimmy G, that is your top 10 QBs in the NFL.

Bottom 10 QBs:
Jones
Stafford
Herbert
Cousins
Bridgewater
Darnold
Carr
Lock
Watson
Mayfield

Not necessarily all bottom 10 QBs, but with the exception of Watson, very average to bad starters.

Now let's explore the anomalies on that list. Goff and Jimmy G are in the top 10 but their teams are clearly elite talentwise, a indicator that yes, teams matter. Trubisky is pretty high on the list as well, carried by a very good defense. Mariotta I can't explain why his win % is so good. I didn't think those TN teams were all that great, and Mariotta isn't that good of a QB. Maybe he is the anti-Cousins and plays much better against winning teams? On the flip side, Stafford has played on terrible teams his entire career. He is not completely absolved of responsibility for his record against winning teams, but it shouldn't be that low with his talent. Cousins? He hasn't played on teams as good as Goff has most of his career, but the Vikings and Redskins aren't exactly the Lions.

So while like every stat there are anomalies and false positives, most of those are easy to explain and this stat is a strong indicator for who the great QBs are in the NFL.

As for Rodgers, it is interesting that Rodgers is so low considering how good his teams have been throughout the years. Maybe that explains why he has only gone to the SB when he has had the #1 defense? Your stat since 2012 is incorrect however.

Just going through his wins from 2012-2015 he beat these teams with a winning record:
MN
Hou
Det
NE
Sea
KC
MN

I stopped when I hit 7 wins, but I knew that number was complete BS because there was no tie in the stat and the Vikings in 2018 (a winning team) tied them.

I shouldn't have posted it. I just wanted to see Rodgers record against winning teams versus Cousins. If Rodgers continues to play well they will win the division again. Us and the Bears will fight for no 2 and I think we are better. Dak will win the Least and Wilson and Brady will be there. Same old song different year. Should come down to the same two. Rodgers VS Brady and the Bucs D is much stronger than the Packers which will cause Rodgers to step backwards. I don't see the Packers generating any heat because that Buc OL is stout. They won't get their #### kicked. With that Brady should make enough plays to get that team back into the show. The Chiefs should be back because they rebuilt their OL with top end veteran talent. Improve now deal. Mahomes won't get the heavy pressure and will be able to function at a high level again. They should be able to score which will make it a great game. That sounds boring. Of course anything can happen and Brady will show his age eventually. Rodgers should start fading he's at the age when it starts the Pack won't be the same. If those two things happen it's wide open. It becomes very interesting. The Saints could jump with the two headed QB monster. Wilson will be the odds on favorite and will be hard to beat. Dak should get HOFA easily which throws him near the top. We will win the North. Of course another team will jump out maybe AZ they have a great young QB or SF with their top pick once Jimmy G goes down again. Some feel Stafford will jump to the top. That would be much more exciting and could happen. Bunch of teams in the mix. That's what I hope to see. I know good luck with that one.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:21 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:45 pm
I shouldn't have posted it. I just wanted to see Rodgers record against winning teams versus Cousins. If Rodgers continues to play well they will win the division again. Us and the Bears will fight for no 2 and I think we are better. Dak will win the Least and Wilson and Brady will be there. Same old song different year. Should come down to the same two. Rodgers VS Brady and the Bucs D is much stronger than the Packers which will cause Rodgers to step backwards. I don't see the Packers generating any heat because that Buc OL is stout. They won't get their #### kicked. With that Brady should make enough plays to get that team back into the show. The Chiefs should be back because they rebuilt their OL with top end veteran talent. Improve now deal. Mahomes won't get the heavy pressure and will be able to function at a high level again. They should be able to score which will make it a great game. That sounds boring. Of course anything can happen and Brady will show his age eventually. Rodgers should start fading he's at the age when it starts the Pack won't be the same. If those two things happen it's wide open. It becomes very interesting. The Saints could jump with the two headed QB monster. Wilson will be the odds on favorite and will be hard to beat. Dak should get HOFA easily which throws him near the top. We will win the North. Of course another team will jump out maybe AZ they have a great young QB or SF with their top pick once Jimmy G goes down again. Some feel Stafford will jump to the top. That would be much more exciting and could happen. Bunch of teams in the mix. That's what I hope to see. I know good luck with that one.

If our Defense plays as good as I think it will play Rodgers doesn't concern me at all. NFC North is ours.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:24 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:09 pm
Stump, Cousins can do that too.

Sure, there is no guarantee he will do it. There are plenty of reasons to believe he won't.

But if Foles and Flacco prove anything, it is that under the right circumstances anything is possible. All things considered, I'd rather take that as the moral of this story and head into this season with some optimism given the strength of the overall team than head into it consigned to believe that no matter how good the overall team is, they have no chance at winning a Superbowl with Cousins.

Anything is possible, so I guess we should cut Cousins and just go with whatever backup we can get. He could be the next Foles right?

fiestavike wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:38 am I like this take. Do you believe the OL is likely to show enough improvement to run the ball well on early downs against the league's stouter fronts?

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 12:57 am

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:24 pm
Anything is possible, so I guess we should cut Cousins and just go with whatever backup we can get. He could be the next Foles right?

I'm really trying to give you reason for optimism... Otherwise, why even bother watching if you know the outcome before the season even starts?