Reignman wrote:No doubt about it, that was a nice throw, but was that the exception or the norm?
Without re-watching every game and coming to a consensus what makes a "deep throw" it seems that is an entirely subjective question based entirely on your perception of Ponder.
For every 50 yard Ponder pass that's on target you can find a bunch that aren't.
That's just a flat-out inaccurate statement. I don't even know if Ponder attempted what I'd consider a "bunch" of deep passes this season. That wasn't the offense. Now, you can say that's because Musgrave didn't trust Ponder to throw them, he didn't trust the supporting cast enough to give Ponder the green light or that, simply, was not the style of offense that Musgrave thought gave the team the best chance to win. The reality is it was probably a sum of the parts.
Did you see his laser to a wide open AD down the sideline at Lambeau? You know, that rainbow that softly hit the trailing defender in the back?
Because we have the only quarterback that misses throws. I assume this is once again a reference to Ponder's supposed lack of arm strength. Please see below.
Ponder's arm strength is better than was advertised coming out of college, when he had shoulder problems. He probably has average to above-average arm strength by NFL standards. He can fire passes into tight spots when necessary. Luck has adequate arm strength, but his game is built around precision and poise. This one's close, but Ponder has the slight edge.
http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_215 ... -this-week
SC: The two things I noticed about him in Mobile -- first, the arm was better than people were saying, and second, it seems that his mobility is a real asset to him as a pure passer. He's not reading to run so much as he is looking to get out of pressure, re-establish his base out of the pocket, and make the form throw even on the run. What did you see from him with those things, and what did you work with him on specifically?
CW: Well, I think the knock in terms of arm strength with Christian was that people tended to forget that he was battling some arm injuries while he was in college. Maybe that was a fair assessment, that he didn't have that "cannon" of an arm, but I know now after having a chance to work with him, that he's very physically strong. He's put together very well. His ability to escape and make plays with his feet is very evident now. He's healthy, and he made some big-time plays against Green Bay. And on the move, whether it was scrambling for a first down or moving out of the pocket and making an accurate throw.
I know this — when Christian Ponder's healthy, he's got more than enough arm strength. But I think he created a little hitch in his delivery, because he was overcompensating for some of the injuries he had. So, we worked on that extensively, in terms of trying to get that hitch out of his throw, so that he could get rid of the ball more quickly. Then, we worked with him just teaching him to generate power with his legs when he's throwing the football. I tell people all the time that quarterbacks throw the ball with their legs, and people don't understand that. You have to be in a good position with your upper body, and get your arm in the right slot, but you deliver the football and generate power with your legs.
I use the analogy all the time of a heavyweight boxer — you'll never see a guy deliver a knockout blow standing straight up with his knees locked out. I teach a lot about building the quarterback from the ground up. Once Christian was comfortable and really able to be in rhythm from head to toe, he could get back to generating some velocity on the ball. That was obviously evident in his first start.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdo ... fl,wp10645
Listen to Greg Cossell talk about Ponder's arm strength here (at about 30:00):
http://ysportspods.podbean.com/2011/12/ ... eg-cosell/
Ponder (6-foot-2, 229 pounds) puzzled scouts somewhat as a rookie because he's known as a smart guy, yet didn't ascend after an encouraging first start. But he did show enough athleticism, arm strength and talent for extending plays with his legs to strengthen the Vikings' belief in him as the quarterback of the future.
http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Scou ... Webb072512
Rotoworld:
He showed better-than-anticipated arm strength and dangerous athleticism, and Ponder has always been an accurate passer.
Christian Ponder completed 20-of-27 passes for 270 yards in the Vikings' Week 1 win over Jacksonville.
He only scrambled once for a gain of one, staying inside the pocket more than Ponder did last season. Ponder still has no vertical receivers to help him taking downfield shots, but he hooked up with Kyle Rudolph at the intermediate level and kept the chains moving for the most part. With plenty of arm talent and plus scrambling skills...
Christian Ponder completed just 4-of-9 passes for 80 yards in the Vikings' preseason opener Friday night.
He scrambled twice for seven yards. Ponder got no help from his teammates, as three of his incompletions were dropped by receivers. The other two were thrown away under pressure. Ponder still continues to impress with his athleticism and underrated arm.
After recently re-watching 2011 game tape, NFL Films guru Greg Cosell found himself "more intrigued" with Christian Ponder's "pure throwing ability."
Rotoworld's Evan Silva separately came to the same conclusion. Both analysts noted better than advertised arm strength, pocket composure, athleticism, and confidence in challenging quality cornerbacks. Cosell believes Ponder's biggest improvement must come as a progression reader after honing in on his primary read regardless of the defense's alignment last year.
http://nflfilms.nfl.com/2012/06/29/cose ... nd-dalton/
Then there was this throw at Florida, running laterally and only tossing it 55 yards with little leg drive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... -Jar435rnc
But, you know, continue to knock his arm strength because that just FEELS like a deficiency, despite what experts and analysis have said after watching him play. There are plenty of things to criticize in regards to Christian Ponder. I don't see arm strength as one of them.
And you're basing that on the fact that Ponder threw 1 on target deep pass all year in a climate controlled dome?
lol...because it's "climate controlled" it means even less. Good to know.
Eh. I count more than one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BxT02-9FQY YMMV
But, again, it's not like he had a ton of deep
attempts. Plus, as the Vikings showed this year, you don't need to consistently take deeps shots in order to win. not all offenses are that style. That's not how we're built and I don't know how it's debatable that we would've reached the playoffs with the parts we have running that style. But I pretty much guarantee if we had a Mike Wallace on our team this season his attempts >25 yards would've increased, perhaps substantially.
The guy has had 26 starts and hasn't shown much improvement.
Except, you know, in every meaningful statistical category.
I know I know, the Ponder apologists like to cling to that final Packer game as proof of improvement
Do you think he could've pulled that off
last season? If your answer is no, then this game was a sign of improvement, was it not? It's also disingenuous to call people who think Ponder has shown enough (and given the options available next season) to be brought back as the incumbent as "apologists."
and overlook the fact that AD had 200 yards rushing and was closing in Dickersons record.
And those that dislike Ponder overlook or ignore the fact that he threw for over 230 yards, 3 TDs, had 0 turnovers, a 65-yard pass, 94.6 QBR and 120 rating and was every bit a part of the victory as any other member of the team.
In other words, perhaps the Packers were more concerned about stopping a certain #28. 234 yards and 3 TD's when you weren't even the defenses focus is not something you should hang your hat on.
Right. I'm sure their game plan and film study had zero discussion or footage on Ponder. Because NFL teams completely ignore game-planning for a non-elite QB.
But yes it was a great game by Ponder standards.
He contributed to the win. It was a solid performance by most any standard outside of the elite QBs in the league (which nobody is comparing Ponder to). Heck, just go back and review Joe Flacco's stats from this season (specifically weeks: 2, 5, 6, 7, 9, 11 & 13). He's not "elite" by any stretch of the imagination (though it seems as though he's trying to get paid like it) and after reviewing those stats Ponder's stat line from this game looks pretty darn good. The point is, Ponder's performance in this game was a solid one, especially given the opponent and the pressure of what was on the line.
Personally I'm convinced we're near the Ponder ceiling. Sure you can add a few more studs and squeeze out a few more yards, but you're going to keep seeing the same rainbows and woefully off target throws. Surrounding Ponder with more talent is like spraying a turd with perfume. Great we'll get 180 yard performances with 250 yard talent. I just can't believe we're not doing more to try and upgrade the most important position on our football team.
That's certainly one opinion. Another is that by giving Ponder legit outside weapons to go with Harvin and Rudolph as well as continued improvement in pass protection might – just might – lead to more completions and greater success. I'm still concerned with Ponder's vision, confidence and decision making, however. And no amount of quality receivers are going to overcome that.
Oh that's right, it's only because our receivers suck and can never get open.
I just don't understand why fans have such an affinity for guys that are generally thought of as no more than #3 or #4 receivers on decent offenses starting for us and placing all of the blame on Ponder. Put it this way, aside from Harvin, which receiver on our team would even crack Green Bay's roster? Ponder isn't a great QB like Brees, Brady, Rodgers or Manning but his receiving corps (especially minus Harvin) is arguably the worst in the league. You'd be a fool not to think this translates into/reflects his production to some degree.
Haha don't sweat it man, it's only a lively debate. I hope nobody is getting butt hurt in this topic.
My brain often hurts.
If you're content with the product that this franchise has offered us at the QB position then I must believe some Viking fans are happy being miserable.
I think you have to look at the options and take a moment to see if they'd be worth the cost to acquire (salary and potential draft pick) and if you believe they are more talented than Ponder, and by what degree. People point to Alex Smith. I'd love him here and if he's the best QB, I say let him roll with it. But is he really that much better than Ponder? And would he be worth a fourth rounder + $7.5 million (+ $1 million roster bonus due in March) in 2013 and $7.5 million in 2014? He'll only be 29, but has a checkered injury history (in his 7 years he has played more than 11 games only twice) and his production for the large part of his career was less than stellar. To give you an idea, let's compare side-by-side Alex Smith in his second year and Christian Ponder:
Alex Smith (year 2)/Christian Ponder (year 2):
Completions/Attempts: 257/442 (58.1%)/ 284/445 (62.4%)
Yards: 2,890/2,701
YPG: 180.6/180.1
300-yard games: 0/1
TDs: 16/15
INTs: 16/12
Rush carries/yards/TDs: 43/151/2 / 58/237/2
Fumbles lost: 5/5
It's actually eerie how closely these two match up, statistically. Frankly, I don't see how Ponder can't ascend to what we saw out of Alex Smith in 2011/12 in the next season or two (provided we've upgraded some areas). We don't surrender a mid-round draft pick, nor shoulder an additional $7.5 million that would likely preclude us from upgrading elsewhere. I understand that Smith isn't the only option out there, but I used him as an example because he seems to be one of the favorites here. I suppose I'm in the camp of using a mid-round draft pick on a QB as opposed to free agency. I just find that to be a smarter, less-risky solution.
Seriously if Ponder is the best we can do then I'd rather see us go back to using stop gap vets. I'm still wondering why we gave up on TJack if Ponder is the best we can do.
How quickly people forget the Tarvaris Jackson days. Grass is always greener, I suppose.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Ponder turn that corner next year and feed me some crow. The sooner the better, but I just don't see it and that's why I'm not too happy to hear we don't plan to do better than the Jason Cambell's and Matt Moore's of the league at backup. Basically we're hedging our bets on Ponder even though he hasn't given us good reason to. It's like the FO is so hell bent on Ponder succeeding that they're willing to crash and burn if he doesn't. That's not championship thinking IMO. And when did it hurt to bring in competition? Maybe it would expedite this whole is he or isn't he debate.
I don't believe in starting over at the QB position when the one we have helped us to 10 wins and a playoff spot while improving in nearly every statistical category with an inconsistent pass-blocking offensive line and dreadful outside receivers. If Ponder was a complete (and I mean unquestionable) failure, then I could justify spending yet another first-round draft pick on a QB. But that's just such a high price to pay, especially what has been lamented as a very poor QB class when there are still major holes to fill at other positions. The "problem" is that he's flashed Good Ponder enough that he hasn't given the organization a good reason to abandon him.
but I'm not too happy about going into next year unprepared should he struggle early and often, or even get injured
Let's just wait until the first preseason game before we talk about not having a more legitimate backup QB.
If we lose AD there will be a huge spotlight on how bad Ponder really is, with or without better receivers.
Let's not talk about losing AD. Please. That should be a rule. But I don't see how Ponder could be worse with better receivers?
The bottom line is we won 10 games on the back of AD and that has caused some to overlook or even forgive the poor play of Ponder this season.
And the other way of looking at that same situation is that the play of AD has caused some to mitigate or dismiss the good play of Ponder this season (he wasn't a complete disaster and, shockingly, completed some passes! Granted they were over 200 0-yard passes, though. I know). AD contributed to the 10 wins, but so did Walsh. And Felton. And Winfield. And Musgrave. And Frazier. And, yes, even Ponder. He was a factor in the late-game win streak the same as the mid-season losing streak.
