Removing Defense As a Factor in QB Wins

[Pondering Her Percy]

Doesn’t this illustrate how much a defense DOES factor into wins and losses?

If you’re a quarterback on a team whose defense gives up a lot of points, you win fewer games. That’s what this graphic shows. Is this a surprise?

What am I missing here?

I dunno I feel like this discussion has been going on for weeks, it far past

He's obsessed at this point. It will never end with him until Cousins is off this team. He will drum up any garbage statistic he can, manipulate your words and twist things to fit his argument until he thinks he won the argument. It's literally an obsession. Desperate people do desperate things.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Stump:

1.) Maybe you should quote my entire sentences and not just part of it before calling me a liar but hey, this is what you do, manipulate and twist peoples words so you feel like you won. I said:

Um one? Last year he lost Henry and then proceeded to go 4-3 without him and then ended the year with Miami and Houston who were both out the door at that point.

That's 4-3 plus the Miami and Houston game which is 6-3.

No, it is calculation based on what actually happened. It is a fact that when Tannehill faces similar defenses, he wins more.

2.) Dude this is literally the dumbest argument ever. But this is why you posted it, so you could continue to nitpick, factor out the defense (which fits perfectly with your narrative, ya know...tune out all the things that work against your argument) and continue on with this obsession of yours.

Like Matt Stafford literally just won the Super Bowl and this article is saying he would've only had 8 wins with the Vikings. When it's been said before on here that Stafford was better than Cousins. So if this article is so accurate, and it's all a "fact", you're telling me that Kirk Cousins is just simply not on a good team? Because Matt Stafford wouldnt win here either right according to this? Even though he just won a SB? So if Super Bowl Champion Matt Stafford couldnt succeed here, why are we expecting Cousins to right? How is that fair on Cousins? I mean that's what this article is saying so.....

And even though Stafford just won a SB, supposedly (according to this article), it's easier for this Vikings team to win with Matt Ryan, Ryan Tannehill or Dak Prescott right??

Newsflash pal.... your article is garbage and essentially proves absolutely nothing. It was written by a fan on "Purple Pain Forums". Real reliable source there. Probably a Cousins hater like you sitting behind his computer screen stewing at the fact that he's on our team. Who knows, maybe it's you

[StumpHunter]

He's obsessed at this point. It will never end with him until Cousins is off this team. He will drum up any garbage statistic he can, manipulate your words and twist things to fit his argument until he thinks he won the argument. It's literally an obsession. Desperate people do desperate things.

I am obsessed writing about the QB of the MN Vikings on MN Vikings board?

Like Matt Stafford literally just won the Super Bowl and this article is saying he would've only had 8 wins with the Vikings. When it's been said before on here that Stafford was better than Cousins.

You notice Stafford wins more consistently when his team gives up more points than Cousins does. So while Cousins is more consistent than Stafford, when things get hard, Cousins folds and Stafford actually gives his team a chance.

Things get hard in the playoffs last I checked, which is why Stafford got multiple firsts in a trade, while no team offered anything for Cousins.

That's 4-3 plus the Miami and Houston game which is 6-3.

Oh, you were implying the Miami and Houston wins don't count? Sorry, that take is so absurd Miami was still alive for a playoff spot when TN beat them and Houston was 2 games removed from destroying the Chargers.

Newsflash pal.... your article is garbage and essentially proves absolutely nothing. It was written by a fan on "Purple Pain Forums". Real reliable source there. Probably a Cousins hater like you sitting behind his computer screen stewing at the fact that he's on our team. Who knows, maybe it's you

As opposed to you sitting behind your compute screen stewing that someone doesn't like him as our QB?

The article proves nothing because you don't like what it says? The numbers are a simple representation of what actually happened. Why are they wrong? Why should Cousins win %s be higher than what the actual numbers say they are?

[Pondering Her Percy]

I am obsessed writing about the QB of the MN Vikings on MN Vikings board?

Yes you are.

You notice Stafford wins more consistently when his team gives up more points than Cousins does. So while Cousins is more consistent than Stafford, when things get hard, Cousins folds and Stafford actually gives his team a chance.

Things get hard in the playoffs last I checked, which is why Stafford got multiple firsts in a trade, while no team offered anything for Cousins. [/quote]

Epic twist there Stump!

Oh, you were implying the Miami and Houston wins don't count? Sorry, that take is so absurd Miami was still alive for a playoff spot when TN beat them and Houston was 2 games removed from destroying the Chargers.

The Miami being alive still by the skin of their teeth, I'll give you that. But Houston, really? Two games removed from destroying the Chargers....lol that's a reach if I've ever seen one.

As opposed to you sitting behind your compute screen stewing that someone doesn't like him as our QB?

The article proves nothing because you don't like what it says? The numbers are a simple representation of what actually happened. Why are they wrong? Why should Cousins win %s be higher than what the actual numbers say they are?

It has nothing to do with me stewing over someone not liking Cousins. You flood the board with your constant complaining of Cousins. Your constant defending of Zimmer, the defense, other QBs that are "supposedly" better than him, etc. Like you dont stop. And you've been doing this for 4+ years now. It's tiring. Yes Kirk Cousins is our QB, yes there are definitely times he deserves criticism, yes there will be a lot of talk on here about him but holy christ dude, you're obsessed. You cant get through a day without pointing out that Cousins isnt the answer. We could have a thread up about Andrew DePoala our long snapper and you would somehow turn that into a Cousins thread.

You love statistics, do me a favor. Find me the percentage of threads where you mentioned Cousins name dating back to 2018. It would be absurd, I guarantee it. I mean I honestly cant even count on one hand how many conversations I recall you having where you didnt complain or make some sort of dig at Kirk Cousins.

So yeah, if I "stew over" anything, it's you flushing out any relevant thread on here with your constant Cousins bashing. Do you think I really care if you like him or not? There are plenty others out there that dont. Kapp has definitely said his peace in regards to Cousins, do you see me jumping down his throat? No. But when you constantly point the finger at Cousins for anything you possibly can and manipulate and twist peoples words, it gets tiring, it flushes out threads, gets them off topic and ticks people off.

[StumpHunter]

So yeah, if I "stew over" anything, it's you flushing out any relevant thread on here with your constant Cousins bashing. Do you think I really care if you like him or not?

Your page long rants prove that you do though. The fact that you are upset about how much I post about Cousins proves that you do.

[Pondering Her Percy]

So yeah, if I "stew over" anything, it's you flushing out any relevant thread on here with your constant Cousins bashing. Do you think I really care if you like him or not?

Your page long rants prove that you do though. The fact that you are upset about how much I post about Cousins proves that you do.

They dont at all, they just dispute your often ridiculous takes. Again, I'm not "upset". As a 10 year member on here, it gets tiring seeing that you just cant get through a damn thread and have a discussion with anyone about anyone other than Cousins. You literally flood every thread with it. It's burns members out seeing the same garbage day in and day out. You're obsessed with proving people wrong about him to the point where you get desperate. I'm starting to truly think you're incapable of discussing any other player not named Cousins at length. I mean you even disappear from the board the weeks Cousins plays well. You did it all last year. But if he played bad, you were on here going off responding within minutes. That's how obsessed and desperate you are.

Maybe stop derailing threads and continuing to have the same Cousins arguments you've had 100 times on here. Like another member said, nobody is changing anyone elses mind here. Be done with it

[StumpHunter]

Your page long rants prove that you do though. The fact that you are upset about how much I post about Cousins proves that you do.

They dont at all, they just dispute your often ridiculous takes. Again, I'm not "upset". As a 10 year member on here, it gets tiring seeing that you just cant get through a damn thread and have a discussion with anyone about anyone other than Cousins. You literally flood every thread with it. It's burns members out seeing the same garbage day in and day out. You're obsessed with proving people wrong about him to the point where you get desperate. I'm starting to truly think you're incapable of discussing any other player not named Cousins at length. I mean you even disappear from the board the weeks Cousins plays well. You did it all last year. But if he played bad, you were on here going off responding within minutes. That's how obsessed and desperate you are.

Maybe stop derailing threads and continuing to have the same Cousins arguments you've had 100 times on here. Like another member said, nobody is changing anyone elses mind here. Be done with it

Yep, clearly not upset at all...

[Pondering Her Percy]

They dont at all, they just dispute your often ridiculous takes. Again, I'm not "upset". As a 10 year member on here, it gets tiring seeing that you just cant get through a damn thread and have a discussion with anyone about anyone other than Cousins. You literally flood every thread with it. It's burns members out seeing the same garbage day in and day out. You're obsessed with proving people wrong about him to the point where you get desperate. I'm starting to truly think you're incapable of discussing any other player not named Cousins at length. I mean you even disappear from the board the weeks Cousins plays well. You did it all last year. But if he played bad, you were on here going off responding within minutes. That's how obsessed and desperate you are.

Maybe stop derailing threads and continuing to have the same Cousins arguments you've had 100 times on here. Like another member said, nobody is changing anyone elses mind here. Be done with it

Yep, clearly not upset at all...

Nope, just tired of your manipulating bullshi# button pushing for the 1000th time on this board

[Cliff]

Yep, clearly not upset at all...

Nope, just tired of your manipulating bullshi# button pushing for the 1000th time on this board

Guys - chill out.

Communication on the internet is so bizarre sometimes. You guys clearly get frustrated with each other but I bet if you were hanging out in a bar watching a game and debating Cousins or anything else about the team you'd probably be buddies.

[StumpHunter]

Nope, just tired of your manipulating bullshi# button pushing for the 1000th time on this board

Guys - chill out.

Communication on the internet is so bizarre sometimes. You guys clearly get frustrated with each other but I bet if you were hanging out in a bar watching a game and debating Cousins or anything else about the team you'd probably be buddies.

Didn't you see my smiley face? I am chill, and honestly, the guy cracks me up.

[J. Kapp 11]

So here’s a stat I saw today.

The Vikings allowed touchdowns on 32.4% of drives in the last 4 minutes of the first half or the game. About 1 out of every 3 drives.

The NFL average was 12%.

Obviously the Vikings ranked last in this stat. The team that finished 31st gave up 20.6%. About 1 out of 5.

And the Vikings ranked 686th in this stat since the year 2000 … out of 686 teams.

So explain to me again why we would remove defense as a factor in QB wins.

Look, I’ve been pretty hard on Kirk Cousins. He does some good things, and he does some bad. I’m not convinced he’s a $35 million-a-year quarterback. And I openly campaigned for the Vikings to trade him. But if I’m gonna be fair, I have to say that few quarterbacks would’ve done better than 8-9 when their team gives up a TD on a third of opponents’ possessions at the end of each half.

I just think this topic is far more nuanced than “which quarterbacks win shootouts.”

[StumpHunter]

So here’s a stat I saw today.

The Vikings allowed touchdowns on 32.4% of drives in the last 4 minutes of the first half or the game. About 1 out of every 3 drives.

The NFL average was 12%.

Obviously the Vikings ranked last in this stat. The team that finished 31st gave up 20.6%. About 1 out of 5.

And the Vikings ranked 686th in this stat since the year 2000 … out of 686 teams.

So explain to me again why we would remove defense as a factor in QB wins.

Look, I’ve been pretty hard on Kirk Cousins. He does some good things, and he does some bad. I’m not convinced he’s a $35 million-a-year quarterback. And I openly campaigned for the Vikings to trade him. But if I’m gonna be fair, I have to say that few quarterbacks would’ve done better than 8-9 when their team gives up a TD on a third of opponents’ possessions at the end of each half.

I just think this topic is far more nuanced than “which quarterbacks win shootouts.”

I think you are missing the point, and that is my fault since the title of this thread obviously wasn't clear.

QBs win less the more points their team gives up, that isn't debatable. Some QBs just win more at 20, 25, 30+ points given up than others and the stats in the article show that our QB pretty much stops winning when his D gives up 25+ while most other QBs win more.

So yes, our D made it harder to win for any QB than Buffalo's D did, but our QB struggled more than most would have in that D.

So again, removing defense as a factor when comparing different QB's win %s.

[J. Kapp 11]

So here’s a stat I saw today.

The Vikings allowed touchdowns on 32.4% of drives in the last 4 minutes of the first half or the game. About 1 out of every 3 drives.

The NFL average was 12%.

Obviously the Vikings ranked last in this stat. The team that finished 31st gave up 20.6%. About 1 out of 5.

And the Vikings ranked 686th in this stat since the year 2000 … out of 686 teams.

So explain to me again why we would remove defense as a factor in QB wins.

Look, I’ve been pretty hard on Kirk Cousins. He does some good things, and he does some bad. I’m not convinced he’s a $35 million-a-year quarterback. And I openly campaigned for the Vikings to trade him. But if I’m gonna be fair, I have to say that few quarterbacks would’ve done better than 8-9 when their team gives up a TD on a third of opponents’ possessions at the end of each half.

I just think this topic is far more nuanced than “which quarterbacks win shootouts.”

I think you are missing the point, and that is my fault since the title of this thread obviously wasn't clear.

QBs win less the more points their team gives up, that isn't debatable. Some QBs just win more at 20, 25, 30+ points given up than others and the stats in the article show that our QB pretty much stops winning when his D gives up 25+ while most other QBs win more.

So yes, our D made it harder to win for any QB than Buffalo's D did, but our QB struggled more than most would have in that D.

So again, removing defense as a factor when comparing different QB's win %s.

I haven’t misunderstood anything. Quit blaming me for your pointless topic!

And by the way, the Vikings are also 5th in the NFL since 2020 in OFFENSIVE TDs in the last four minutes. So it looks like our offense has done its job late, but our defense has fallen flat on its face. Yet you want to blame the quarterback for losing shootouts. Do YOU understand? Our late-in-half defense has been HISTORICALLY BAD for two years. No quarterback can overcome that.

This entire thread is nothing but yet another platform to bash the quarterback when we’ve already had about a thousand threads about it. Every QB loses more than he wins when his defense sucks. Just because one loses more than another doesn’t constitute any kind of point. If you give up lots of points, you’re going to lose far more than you win. Who cares if you win 10% of the time or 25% of the time? It’s the difference between a turd sandwich and a poop sandwich. Either way, your team isn’t going far.

[StumpHunter]

I think you are missing the point, and that is my fault since the title of this thread obviously wasn't clear.

QBs win less the more points their team gives up, that isn't debatable. Some QBs just win more at 20, 25, 30+ points given up than others and the stats in the article show that our QB pretty much stops winning when his D gives up 25+ while most other QBs win more.

So yes, our D made it harder to win for any QB than Buffalo's D did, but our QB struggled more than most would have in that D.

So again, removing defense as a factor when comparing different QB's win %s.

I haven’t misunderstood anything. Quit blaming me for your pointless topic!

I believe I said it was my fault you misunderstood, which means I was blaming myself.

However, since you continue to go down the same line of thinking that has absolutely nothing to do with the article in the OP, despite it being explained to you twice, this is on you now.

And by the way, the Vikings are also 5th in the NFL since 2020 in OFFENSIVE TDs in the last four minutes. So it looks like our offense has done its job late, but our defense has fallen flat on its face. Yet you want to blame the quarterback for losing shootouts. Do YOU understand? Our late-in-half defense has been HISTORICALLY BAD for two years. No quarterback can overcome that.

When you have 8 seasons worth of starts 2 seasons is not going to impact these types of numbers significantly. Your post also implies the past 2 seasons hurt Cousins in these numbers, and I wonder if that is actually true?

Who cares if you win 10% of the time or 25% of the time? It’s the difference between a turd sandwich and a poop sandwich. Either way, your team isn’t going far.

You don't think having a QB that can overcome a tough situation twice as often as another QB is beneficial? 25 points isn't a lot of points, and there are QBs who actually win half or more of their games when their team gives up to 30, while our QB wins 1-4. That is a HUGE difference and explains why no team even asked about trading for Cousins this off season.

[J. Kapp 11]

I haven’t misunderstood anything. Quit blaming me for your pointless topic!

I believe I said it was my fault you misunderstood, which means I was blaming myself.

However, since you continue to go down the same line of thinking that has absolutely nothing to do with the article in the OP, despite it being explained to you twice, this is on you now.

And by the way, the Vikings are also 5th in the NFL since 2020 in OFFENSIVE TDs in the last four minutes. So it looks like our offense has done its job late, but our defense has fallen flat on its face. Yet you want to blame the quarterback for losing shootouts. Do YOU understand? Our late-in-half defense has been HISTORICALLY BAD for two years. No quarterback can overcome that.

When you have 8 seasons worth of starts 2 seasons is not going to impact these types of numbers significantly. Your post also implies the past 2 seasons hurt Cousins in these numbers, and I wonder if that is actually true?

Who cares if you win 10% of the time or 25% of the time? It’s the difference between a turd sandwich and a poop sandwich. Either way, your team isn’t going far.

You don't think having a QB that can overcome a tough situation twice as often as another QB is beneficial? 25 points isn't a lot of points, and there are QBs who actually win half or more of their games when their team gives up to 30, while our QB wins 1-4. That is a HUGE difference and explains why no team even asked about trading for Cousins this off season.

Fine. It's on me. Here's what I have to say, if it's not already clear.

IT'S A DUMB TOPIC!

You're making it out to be this incredibly important stat when it's not. And for God's sake, it doesn't explain why "no team even asked about trading for Cousins" — that's a statement for which you have absolutely no proof, either that no team asked about trading for him or that that's the reason. It's just you once again showing us how bad you think Cousins is.

News flash. Kirk Cousins is the Vikings' quarterback for the next two years. So throw out all the stats you want. That's not gonna change. Maybe what you ought to be doing is hoping that Kevin O'Connell actually CAN get more out of him than Mike Zimmer, Klint Kubiak, Gary Kubiak, Kevin Stefanski and John DeFilippo could. I wonder ... if O'Connell actually DOES get better play out of Cousins, will you show us a bunch of stats that prove THAT? I'm not holding my breath.