Vikings Message Board.Com

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:51 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:17 pm
Whether it is DE or DT the Vikings need to generate more pressure. IMO there isn't a starting caliber RDE or 3 tech on this team, and we don't have the cap to rectify that via FAs.

I disagree. By the time FA rolls around, we will have enough cap room to make some moves. 1/4 of the teams in the NFL are in WORSE shape than we are cap wise. These free agents have to go somewhere. I've never seen so many teams below the cap right now. You're going to see cuts right and left across the league in the coming weeks. Not only are teams effected by the cap numbers but these free agents will be as well because the contracts being dished out will be less than they would in a normal year. But in terms of the Vikings, I can tell you that we will 100% be able to afford a guy like Everson Griffen. You consistently act like we are $50 million over the cap. We're only $4 million over. There are teams that are $20+ million, $30+ million, hell the Saints are $60+ million. Most of the teams in trouble are NFC playoff teams which is good for us.

I've said this when some were saying we have no CAP and we are screwed. We can create a ton of CAP with a snap of the finger and the impact will be little. Rudy is the perfect example. Who cares. I want that kid to play. Barr needs to go next. I realize Zim and him are buddies but it's time to hit the road. Just too much coin for what he does. Then just keep going down the line. Take this or see ya. We only have a few must keep players that we will need to pay. But the NFLPA and owners need to adjust for this CAP reduction or it's going to be a mess across the board and I don't know what will happen. Some players will lose out big time. Few will gain if any. Like these FA guys. Teams have no money so get ready for a cheaper payday.

S197 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:40 am

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:33 pm

Yeah, if Spielman holds at 14 in the 1st I also don't think there is a DT that makes sense there.

If 5 QBs go in the first 10 picks (which I think is increasingly likely as we approach the draft), then Spielman should have some excellent options if he holds at 14. He should be able to choose from among a top DE, top IOL or OT, possibly a top WR or LB.

Another option at 14 if that happens is a trade back to pick up an extra 2nd and still get a player in Round 1 he wants. If he can move back around 25 or so he still can get a good prospect at a position of immediate need while also getting back into the back half of Round 2. Then if he's feeling good about someone a bit earlier in Round 2 he can trade up using that 2nd and one of the 3rds while still having another pick in Round 3. Not as good as simply having kept that 2nd rounder, but still not too bad if it works out that way.

And here's a REALLY bold move for Spielman if he does do that - take Kyle Trask in Round 2. I can hear some howls if they did that because Trask has fallen a bit as a result of his rough bowl performance, but I continue to believe he is going to be the best QB out of this draft. That also queues up a future path at QB without putting immediate pressure on either Cousins or Trask.

In a scenario like this, my hope is for a guy like Micah Parsons. I know it’s a long shot but this guy is going to be a stud. Stranger things have happened, Shariff Floyd and Dalvin Cook’s falls as examples. But I wouldn’t be surprised if Rick goes with Rousseau.

If Spielman takes Rousseau at 14, then I lose all faith in his ability to draft.

That would be a need pick, and that's not the way to play it at 14. You take BPA, and Rousseau is NOT that. He has one season of tape, period. He was a really good pass rusher in '19, but not great against the run and sat out last year. And for my money, he's not even the best DE likely to be available at 14. Michigan's Kwity Paye has far more potential IMO. Dude is an animal.

I love the idea of trading back for a late 1st and a late 2nd.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:21 pm

S197 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:40 am

In a scenario like this, my hope is for a guy like Micah Parsons. I know it’s a long shot but this guy is going to be a stud. Stranger things have happened, Shariff Floyd and Dalvin Cook’s falls as examples. But I wouldn’t be surprised if Rick goes with Rousseau.

If Spielman takes Rousseau at 14, then I lose all faith in his ability to draft.

That would be a need pick, and that's not the way to play it at 14. You take BPA, and Rousseau is NOT that. He has one season of tape, period. He was a really good pass rusher in '19, but not great against the run and sat out last year. And for my money, he's not even the best DE likely to be available at 14. Michigan's Kwity Paye has far more potential IMO. Dude is an animal.

I love the idea of trading back for a late 1st and a late 2nd.

I don't know if I'd be so down on Rousseau if he's the pick, although I share your concerns about him. But he has played well when on the field, and he does possess some rare physical attributes that will present problems for opposing OCs if (and that's a big IF) Rousseau develops his skills and brings his best consistently.

I like Paye too. I'm not as sold on Paye as a pass rusher at the next level, but he's a dominant run defender and a very aware player. Maybe Paye can develop more as a pass rusher with pro coaching ala what Hunter did because he wasn't a prolific pass rusher in college either. I just don't think he's put the evidence on tape yet, so there is a chance he won't. #14 is a high spot for a guy with a big question mark. I'm probably in the minority of people who feel that way as I see Paye consistently off mocks even in the top 10.

There are two DL players I really like in this draft though, and neither of them is getting much hype, at least not yet.

The first is Daviyon Nixon of Iowa. His game is very good. He shows ability as both a pass rusher and a run defender. But what I really like about Nixon is his motor. The guy never takes a play off. He reminds me a little of John Randle in that regard, albeit Nixon is bigger than Randle. He's a guy who has upside to develop and is likely to last into Round 2.

The second is Payton Turner out of Houston. Turner ticks all the physical boxes you look for in a DE - he's got the length, the size, the get off at the snap, and the physical toughness to contest. But he's raw. He's going to need some solid coaching and both the coaches and fans might need a little patience before he shines as a pro. Turner is a legit DE prospect who is likely to last into Round 3 although someone might take him much earlier once they watch his highlights.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:04 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:45 am You bring up an interesting point. There seems to be many QBs that could go before our pick but one of those guys could drop to us at 14. If there is a top 10 rated QB that slips to us that better be the pick at 14. That wouldn't bother me at all. QBs are hard to come by and they shouldn't be passed up. I realize the hit rate on QBs is extremely low but you need take a swing if a guy you like is there. I like that Jones kid from Bama but I don't even know if he's top 10 or top 5 or whatever right now. Bottom line QB should always be at the top of our list at this point or any point really. With this many guys I could see one dropping.

This is one draft in particular where I think it is going to be harder to evaluate QBs than in past years. That difficulty will both lead to teams over-ranking QBs in this draft as well as some QBs that might have been ranked higher falling under the hype train rather than getting on it.

Bottom line is, even if all of the top 5 QBs are gone by the time #14 rolls around, there are still going to be QBs in Rounds 2 and even 3 who might end up having more success as pros than the top guys.

It isn't just at QB that this is going to be the case. This is going to be true at many positions and with many players.

This presents great opportunity as well as great peril for GMs and scouts around the league. With some hard work and good luck, maybe Spielman and his crew can find unexpected gems well into the later rounds.

It's basically a one off deal at this point. Teams are adjusting their internal processes for player evaluations and other tasks associated with the draft. That alone will take alot of work and trial and error. Even the players that sat out the year bring problems. The guys are athletes with bodies and minds that are still developing. Nobody knows what the impact will be. Which is basically what you pointed out.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:51 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:17 pm
Whether it is DE or DT the Vikings need to generate more pressure. IMO there isn't a starting caliber RDE or 3 tech on this team, and we don't have the cap to rectify that via FAs.

I disagree. By the time FA rolls around, we will have enough cap room to make some moves. 1/4 of the teams in the NFL are in WORSE shape than we are cap wise. These free agents have to go somewhere. I've never seen so many teams below the cap right now. You're going to see cuts right and left across the league in the coming weeks. Not only are teams effected by the cap numbers but these free agents will be as well because the contracts being dished out will be less than they would in a normal year. But in terms of the Vikings, I can tell you that we will 100% be able to afford a guy like Everson Griffen. You consistently act like we are $50 million over the cap. We're only $4 million over. There are teams that are $20+ million, $30+ million, hell the Saints are $60+ million. Most of the teams in trouble are NFC playoff teams which is good for us.

NO being 48 million over the cap doesn't help us get a viable starting DE and I don't care that 8 teams might be worse off than us from a cap perspective.

A player with a high ceiling like Griffen who would probably be willing to take less this year to prove he is worth more next year when the cap goes back up is why I kind of hate this move for Weatherly. There will be some solid veteran starters signed for 2.5 million, and unless drastic cuts are made, like cutting our starting LT and LBer without anyone on the roster who can easily replace them, 2.5 million could end up being as much as half of our cap space.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:52 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:51 pm

I disagree. By the time FA rolls around, we will have enough cap room to make some moves. 1/4 of the teams in the NFL are in WORSE shape than we are cap wise. These free agents have to go somewhere. I've never seen so many teams below the cap right now. You're going to see cuts right and left across the league in the coming weeks. Not only are teams effected by the cap numbers but these free agents will be as well because the contracts being dished out will be less than they would in a normal year. But in terms of the Vikings, I can tell you that we will 100% be able to afford a guy like Everson Griffen. You consistently act like we are $50 million over the cap. We're only $4 million over. There are teams that are $20+ million, $30+ million, hell the Saints are $60+ million. Most of the teams in trouble are NFC playoff teams which is good for us.

NO being 48 million over the cap doesn't help us get a viable starting DE and I don't care that 8 teams might be worse off than us from a cap perspective.

A player with a high ceiling like Griffen who would probably be willing to take less this year to prove he is worth more next year when the cap goes back up is why I kind of hate this move for Weatherly. There will be some solid veteran starters signed for 2.5 million, and unless drastic cuts are made, like cutting our starting LT and LBer without anyone on the roster who can easily replace them, 2.5 million could end up being as much as half of our cap space.

Griffen had a very good career with us but he also was a problem. He even said he would never come back to us and then changed his mind. For his latest BS see below.
He recently got himself in a bit of hot water with one of his tweets though after he criticized current Vikings quarterback Kirk Cousins. Griffen later deleted the tweet and then apologized for his remarks about Cousins.
I don't want a guy like that on our team. He's the one who bailed out on us in 2018. Just a loser.
In this apology post, the veteran pass rusher mentions that he’s “getting some help,” and “checking (himself) in.” Griffen hasn’t provided any other details on what he meant, so it’s unclear what exactly he’s currently going through.
He needs to check himself out of our teams plans. You can't waste a roster spot on that type of player. If you think a teammate isn't a very good player that's ok but don't post it to the world. Some of these people need to get away from the keypad. .

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:52 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:51 pm

I disagree. By the time FA rolls around, we will have enough cap room to make some moves. 1/4 of the teams in the NFL are in WORSE shape than we are cap wise. These free agents have to go somewhere. I've never seen so many teams below the cap right now. You're going to see cuts right and left across the league in the coming weeks. Not only are teams effected by the cap numbers but these free agents will be as well because the contracts being dished out will be less than they would in a normal year. But in terms of the Vikings, I can tell you that we will 100% be able to afford a guy like Everson Griffen. You consistently act like we are $50 million over the cap. We're only $4 million over. There are teams that are $20+ million, $30+ million, hell the Saints are $60+ million. Most of the teams in trouble are NFC playoff teams which is good for us.

NO being 48 million over the cap doesn't help us get a viable starting DE and I don't care that 8 teams might be worse off than us from a cap perspective.

A player with a high ceiling like Griffen who would probably be willing to take less this year to prove he is worth more next year when the cap goes back up is why I kind of hate this move for Weatherly. There will be some solid veteran starters signed for 2.5 million, and unless drastic cuts are made, like cutting our starting LT and LBer without anyone on the roster who can easily replace them, 2.5 million could end up being as much as half of our cap space.

I mean you've panicked about cap since the day Cousins was signed. And year after year they arent losing guys right and left and not dipping into free agency. Yeah this year we are over the cap but like I said, so are multiple other teams. My point behind that was, clearly teams werent planning on this pandemic and it caused teams to be further behind the cap than they expected. If it wasnt for the cap number staying somewhat stagnant due to COVID, the Vikings would be well in the positive right now. But again, the Vikings arent the only team suffering from this. There are 8-9 teams in worse shape than we are, some in much worse shape. It's going to 100% effect the size of the contracts these free agents are going to receive.

As for Weatherly, again, I'll take it as a depth signing. And most of his contract seems incentive based. I get what you're saying here but IIRC, his contract is a very small cap hit.

In regards to Reiff and Barr....yes I think getting rid of Barr is stupid because there is no replacement. As for Reiff, I've said this over and over again, we DRAFTED his replacement. Is Ezra Cleveland some stud of a LT? I have no idea but it is indeed his natural position and he's played that position his entire life. Why continue to waste him at guard and potentially ruin him just so you can pay Reiff? You cant tell me that given the teams in this league in dire need for tackle help, that nobody would trade for Reiff? Trent Williams garnered a 5th and a 3rd the following year and had a season off. Hell I'd trade Reiff in a New York minute if I was offered just a 5th. Trade him for any draft pick you can, I dont care if it's a 7th rounder. By trading him, we gain picks (win), save a bunch of cap (win) and get to move Cleveland to his natural position (win). If Cleveland flops, so be it. But you at least have to give him that shot. Putting a lean athletic offensive tackle at guard, on the opposite side no less, is just dumb. I'm so sick of not having TRUE guards. It's either a center moving to guard or a tackle moving to guard.

I've mentioned this before on here....

Would you ever consider moving Brian O'Neill to left guard??

No, stupid right?

That's what they are doing with Ezra Cleveland. We'd never fathom moving O'Neill to the opposite side at guard. But we're doing it with Cleveland. Riley Reiff is a MUST trade/cut IMO. You'll see in my mock how I approached this. I'll be posting it today or tomorrow.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:49 am
I mean you've panicked about cap since the day Cousins was signed. And year after year they arent losing guys right and left and not dipping into free agency.

We lost 6 starters and only replaced one in FA last year. That isn't losing guys left and right?

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:49 am Is Ezra Cleveland some stud of a LT?

The Vikings don't think so and neither do GMs across the NFL or he would have gone early in the 1st. That doesn't mean he couldn't be a good LT though, just that penciling him in as the starting LT when all indications point to GMs thinking he is either projecting to be a project LT or a guard in the NFL is based purely on hope.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:36 am
We lost 6 starters and only replaced one in FA last year. That isn't losing guys left and right?

So how long are you going to play this game where you continue to try and prove the same points over and over that just simply arent true? We've gone over this many times on here but I guess I will one final time.... We did not, I repeat, DID NOT lose any of those 6 starters because of Kirk Cousins and his contract.

1.) Xavier Rhodes- downright horrid last year. He was doing nothing but going backwards and clearly needed a fresh start. He was cut because of the money he was making and how bad he was playing. Not because he was a cap casualty.

2.) Linval Joseph- was projected by just about everyone that he was going to get cut because he was getting to the back end of his prime and was no longer the player he once was in 2017 and was still sitting on a big contract. Again, not a cap casualty

3.) Trae Waynes- I was always a Waynes supporter and would've like him back but lets be honest here, do you think he was worthy of making $42 million and becoming the 7th highest paid corner in the league? Absolutely not. Whether we had zero cap room or $80 million in cap room, I wouldnt be paying Trae Waynes that. Again, not a cap casualty

4.) Everson Griffen- Griffen opted out of his OWN contract. Rumor has it the Vikings were going to cut him but let me also ask you this, if Griffen didnt opt out and we had plenty of money, would you keep him at $14 million a year? No not for a 32 year old DE. And look, a guy that was just making $13.9 million walks in free agency and ends up on two different teams in one year as a rotational DE. That right there proves he was worth nowhere near $13.9 million. Again, not a cap casualty

5.) Mac Alexander- Alexander accepted a 1 year, $4 million contract. Are you going to sit there and tell me that we were SO cap strapped that we couldnt afford a 1 year, $4 million contract?? Alexander WANTED out because of Zim playing him in the meaningless finale where he ended up getting hurt and missing the playoffs. That's a Mike Zimmer problem, not a cap problem. Again, not a cap casualty.

6.) Who is #6?? Are you talking about Diggs? The same guy that wanted out because of the switch to the run heavy scheme that he made public was indeed his problem here? That Diggs? Yeah, not even going down that road again with you. You've got too much Cousins hate in your bones to even think straight when it comes to that. But hey, I'm sure if the Vikings never signed Cousins and drafted that superstar passer Lamar Jackson, Diggs would've been all smiles.....as he sits there and watches the entire offense gear around Jackson and Cook running the ball (even more so than we do now, way more) and anytime they do pass, Thielen continues to overshadow him like he always has. I'm sure Diggs would've been happier than a pig in the mud sitting here watching all that go down.....yaaaaaaa

The Vikings don't think so and neither do GMs across the NFL or he would have gone early in the 1st. That doesn't mean he couldn't be a good LT though, just that penciling him in as the starting LT when all indications point to GMs thinking he is either projecting to be a project LT or a guard in the NFL is based purely on hope.

What kind of logic is that? I forgot, only early first round picks are good enough to play LT at an effective level

Yeah I think most did view him as more of a potential "project" although those type guys tend to go a round or two later. But he's now been in the league an entire year. He has his experience now. How in any way in any GM going to say, "even though he's literally played left tackle since he was in high school, I think he'd be better on the opposite side of the line and a completely different position playing guard". The only reason Cleveland is playing right guard is because Dru Samia was the most pathetic lineman in the NFL and we had no choice but to bench him. I highly doubt their plan when drafting him was to plug him in at right guard. It just makes zero sense. Like I said, that would be like drafting Brian O'Neill who is a right tackle and saying "yeah I think he'd be a good left guard". Literally makes zero sense. Cleveland is a left tackle and if that's where you're planning on him playing in the long run, get Reiff the eff out of there and get Cleveland where he belongs. But mark my words, Reiff will go nowhere, Cleveland will rot at RG and eventually flame out, we will continue drafting tackles and centers and we will continue to lounge in offensive line purgatory wondering who the next lineman is that "fits our scheme"

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:28 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:36 am
We lost 6 starters and only replaced one in FA last year. That isn't losing guys left and right?

So how long are you going to play this game where you continue to try and prove the same points over and over that just simply arent true? We've gone over this many times on here but I guess I will one final time.... We did not, I repeat, DID NOT lose any of those 6 starters because of Kirk Cousins and his contract.

You can say it until you are blue in the face it won't make it true. The Vikings didn't turn over half their starting top 10 defense because they thought it would make them better. They did it because they were up against the cap and the biggest reason they were up against it was Kirk Cousins' contract. 31 million going to one player is just too much for a team to absorb and still keep and sign all the players they want to.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:28 pm

What kind of logic is that? I forgot, only early first round picks are good enough to play LT at an effective level

That isn't what I said. If Cleveland was a great NFL LT prospect he would have been taken earlier than he was. Instead he was taken where a developmental LT or a LT that could be converted to a guard would have been taken. Now, teams could be wrong, like they were with O'Neil, but until like O'Neil, Cleveland proves he is a capable starting LT, all you have is hope.

Since 2000, there have been 5 pro bowl left tackles drafted pick 58 or later, and 3 of those didn't start until year 3. Compare that to the 1st round where there have been 23 drafted there since 2000. For context there have been 28 1st round QBs taken in the 1st that have made a pro bowl compared to 11 taken 58th or later. In other words teams are better at identifying great LT talent and drafting it early than they are at identifying "great" (pro bowl for QB is a little iffy) QB talent.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:33 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:21 pm
If Spielman takes Rousseau at 14, then I lose all faith in his ability to draft.

That would be a need pick, and that's not the way to play it at 14. You take BPA, and Rousseau is NOT that. He has one season of tape, period. He was a really good pass rusher in '19, but not great against the run and sat out last year. And for my money, he's not even the best DE likely to be available at 14. Michigan's Kwity Paye has far more potential IMO. Dude is an animal.

I love the idea of trading back for a late 1st and a late 2nd.

I don't know if I'd be so down on Rousseau if he's the pick, although I share your concerns about him. But he has played well when on the field, and he does possess some rare physical attributes that will present problems for opposing OCs if (and that's a big IF) Rousseau develops his skills and brings his best consistently.

I like Paye too. I'm not as sold on Paye as a pass rusher at the next level, but he's a dominant run defender and a very aware player. Maybe Paye can develop more as a pass rusher with pro coaching ala what Hunter did because he wasn't a prolific pass rusher in college either. I just don't think he's put the evidence on tape yet, so there is a chance he won't. #14 is a high spot for a guy with a big question mark. I'm probably in the minority of people who feel that way as I see Paye consistently off mocks even in the top 10.

There are two DL players I really like in this draft though, and neither of them is getting much hype, at least not yet.

The first is Daviyon Nixon of Iowa. His game is very good. He shows ability as both a pass rusher and a run defender. But what I really like about Nixon is his motor. The guy never takes a play off. He reminds me a little of John Randle in that regard, albeit Nixon is bigger than Randle. He's a guy who has upside to develop and is likely to last into Round 2.

The second is Payton Turner out of Houston. Turner ticks all the physical boxes you look for in a DE - he's got the length, the size, the get off at the snap, and the physical toughness to contest. But he's raw. He's going to need some solid coaching and both the coaches and fans might need a little patience before he shines as a pro. Turner is a legit DE prospect who is likely to last into Round 3 although someone might take him much earlier once they watch his highlights.

Agree with your take on Rousseau and Paye. I'd take Paye over Rousseau at this point based on what I've seen on film. He's an elite run defender who I think can develop as an above average pass rusher. Rousseau might have a higher ceiling but he has more bust potential and will not be a day one starter imo.

I know it's probably unpopular around here to suggest another Cornerback high but I'd be happy with Horn or Surtain Jr. as well. Rick really missed the boat when he didn't take Winfield Jr. instead of Gladney last year.

As for Weatherly I think it's good to have him back as a rotational piece. Hopefully Wonnum can make a leap. I like Alim McNiel in the mid rounds. You can never have enough good pass-rushers or playmakers in the secondary.