What are the missing pieces for this Vikings team?

[Mothman]

We are great at WR on offense, okay everywhere else. Average players will get you An average record.

Defensively we have great players at every position group, which is why it is a championship defense.

It would be nice if they'd prove that by winning a championship (or at least playing like a championship defense in an actual championship game).

Sorry, I know that sounds harsh but I've seen the hard sell for Zimmer's defense for 4+ years now and although they've been division champs twice, I don't think division titles are what people mean when they talk about championship defense. I just feel they should deliver on a championship before we give them that designation.

[Maelstrom88]

I also think runningback is a need. Murray goes down too easy. They need a real powerback who can bull forward on short yardage and create holes of his own. It would also help tremendously if that player could pass protect well.

[Cliff]

We are great at WR on offense, okay everywhere else. Average players will get you An average record.

Defensively we have great players at every position group, which is why it is a championship defense.

It would be nice if they'd prove that by winning a championship (or at least playing like a championship defense in an actual championship game).

Sorry, I know that sounds harsh but I've seen the hard sell for Zimmer's defense for 4+ years now and although they've been division champs twice, I don't think division titles are what people mean when they talk about championship defense. I just feel they should deliver on a championship before we give them that designation.

The way Zimmer's defenses have played during the playoffs has been a worry of mine for a while. They look like championship caliber until the playoffs for the most part.

There are a hundred things that go into the outcomes of these games but the defenses have all ultimately fallen to Zimmer. It's not all gloom and doom either (2015 against the Seahawks, 2017 for the first 3 quarters against NO). Pretty much all of the Cinci defenses fell apart in the playoffs. Mostly getting gashed in the running game.

(Last 10 years - prior to 2018)
Bengals 2009 @ home against Jets - Gave up 171 rushing yards and 2 TDs. Allowed 12/15 182 yards 1TD/0INT to Mark Sanchez. 0 sacks, 0 INTs, 0 FFs, lost 24-14 in the Wildcard round.
Bengals 2011 @ Houston - Gave up 188 rushing yards and 2TDs. Passing game was ok; 11/20, 159 yards 1TD/0INT to T.J. Yates. 2 sacks, 0 INTS, 0 FFs Lost 31 - 10 in Wildcard round.
Bengals 2012 @ Houston - Gave up 158 Rushing yards and 1 rushing TD. Matt Schaub went 29/38 for 262 yards 0TD/1INT. 0 Sacks, 1 INT, 0 FFs
Bengals 2013 @ Home against Chargers - gave up 196 rushing yards and 2 rushing TDs. Rivers went 12/16 for 128 yards and 1TD/0INT. 1 sack, 0 INT, 0 FFs
Seahawks 2015 The defense did pretty well here but the extreme cold definitely played in the favor of defenses on both sides.
NO 2017 - the defense played really well most of the game but then allowed Brees and company to put up 17 points at the worst possible time - in the 4th quarter to all but win the game.
Eagles 2017 Converted 10/14 3rd down attempts. Foles went 26-33 for 352 and 3 TDs, 0 INTs, 141.4 QB rating. 110 rushing yards on 30 carries. No turnovers. 1 Sack

[Mothman]

The way Zimmer's defenses have played during the playoffs has been a worry of mine for a while. They look like championship caliber until the playoffs for the most part.

There are a hundred things that go into the outcomes of these games but the defenses have all ultimately fallen to Zimmer. It's not all gloom and doom either (2015 against the Seahawks, 2017 for the first 3 quarters against NO). Pretty much all of the Cinci defenses fell apart in the playoffs. Mostly getting gashed in the running game.

(Last 10 years - prior to 2018)
Bengals 2009 @ home against Jets - Gave up 171 rushing yards and 2 TDs. Allowed 12/15 182 yards 1TD/0INT to Mark Sanchez. 0 sacks, 0 INTs, 0 FFs, lost 24-14 in the Wildcard round.
Bengals 2011 @ Houston - Gave up 188 rushing yards and 2TDs. Passing game was ok; 11/20, 159 yards 1TD/0INT to T.J. Yates. 2 sacks, 0 INTS, 0 FFs Lost 31 - 10 in Wildcard round.
Bengals 2012 @ Houston - Gave up 158 Rushing yards and 1 rushing TD. Matt Schaub went 29/38 for 262 yards 0TD/1INT. 0 Sacks, 1 INT, 0 FFs
Bengals 2013 @ Home against Chargers - gave up 196 rushing yards and 2 rushing TDs. Rivers went 12/16 for 128 yards and 1TD/0INT. 1 sack, 0 INT, 0 FFs
Seahawks 2015 The defense did pretty well here but the extreme cold definitely played in the favor of defenses on both sides.
NO 2017 - the defense played really well most of the game but then allowed Brees and company to put up 17 points at the worst possible time - in the 4th quarter to all but win the game.
Eagles 2017 Converted 10/14 3rd down attempts. Foles went 26-33 for 352 and 3 TDs, 0 INTs, 141.4 QB rating. 110 rushing yards on 30 carries. No turnovers. 1 Sack

Good post, Cliff. I worry that Zimmer's scheme and approach to defense has a ceiling. His defenses seem built primarily to thrive with a lead and they seem vulnerable to a good running team with the determination and personnel to stick it to them on the ground. Those playoff stats certainly appear to reflect that. It's been apparent in their last 3 games against playoff-caliber opponents (CHI, NE and SEA) too. The Lions clearly thought running the ball was their best bet to win on Sunday but thankfully, they weren't up the task.

Maybe this will be the year we see a Zimmer defense reach the postseason and excel there but I think the history is a bit worrisome. You cited 7 playoff games above. That's a substantial sampling.

[fiestavike]

Maybe this will be the year we see a Zimmer defense reach the postseason and excel there but I think the history is a bit worrisome. You cited 7 playoff games above. That's a substantial sampling.

If they go in on a three game win streak (which will likely be necessary if they are going to make the playoffs) perhaps we can say that they are the team that faced early adversity and peaked at the right time. That's really the only way to maintain hope that this might be the year.

If they can beat a really strong Bears team in back to back weeks, I'll be convinced that this team will represent the NFC in the superbowl. Very unlikely they can pull that off without a QB who can make some plays, and buy some time against a truly disruptive defense. The bears can stop the run and know how to make plays go pear shaped. I think 9 times out of 10, that a circumstance Kirk Cousins is not going to thrive in.

[StumpHunter]

It would be nice if they'd prove that by winning a championship (or at least playing like a championship defense in an actual championship game).

Sorry, I know that sounds harsh but I've seen the hard sell for Zimmer's defense for 4+ years now and although they've been division champs twice, I don't think division titles are what people mean when they talk about championship defense. I just feel they should deliver on a championship before we give them that designation.

The way Zimmer's defenses have played during the playoffs has been a worry of mine for a while. They look like championship caliber until the playoffs for the most part.

There are a hundred things that go into the outcomes of these games but the defenses have all ultimately fallen to Zimmer. It's not all gloom and doom either (2015 against the Seahawks, 2017 for the first 3 quarters against NO). Pretty much all of the Cinci defenses fell apart in the playoffs. Mostly getting gashed in the running game.

(Last 10 years - prior to 2018)
Bengals 2009 @ home against Jets - Gave up 171 rushing yards and 2 TDs. Allowed 12/15 182 yards 1TD/0INT to Mark Sanchez. 0 sacks, 0 INTs, 0 FFs, lost 24-14 in the Wildcard round.
Bengals 2011 @ Houston - Gave up 188 rushing yards and 2TDs. Passing game was ok; 11/20, 159 yards 1TD/0INT to T.J. Yates. 2 sacks, 0 INTS, 0 FFs Lost 31 - 10 in Wildcard round.
Bengals 2012 @ Houston - Gave up 158 Rushing yards and 1 rushing TD. Matt Schaub went 29/38 for 262 yards 0TD/1INT. 0 Sacks, 1 INT, 0 FFs
Bengals 2013 @ Home against Chargers - gave up 196 rushing yards and 2 rushing TDs. Rivers went 12/16 for 128 yards and 1TD/0INT. 1 sack, 0 INT, 0 FFs
Seahawks 2015 The defense did pretty well here but the extreme cold definitely played in the favor of defenses on both sides.
NO 2017 - the defense played really well most of the game but then allowed Brees and company to put up 17 points at the worst possible time - in the 4th quarter to all but win the game.
Eagles 2017 Converted 10/14 3rd down attempts. Foles went 26-33 for 352 and 3 TDs, 0 INTs, 141.4 QB rating. 110 rushing yards on 30 carries. No turnovers. 1 Sack

The way Zimmer's defenses have played during the playoffs has been a worry of mine for a while. They look like championship caliber until the playoffs for the most part.

There are a hundred things that go into the outcomes of these games but the defenses have all ultimately fallen to Zimmer. It's not all gloom and doom either (2015 against the Seahawks, 2017 for the first 3 quarters against NO). Pretty much all of the Cinci defenses fell apart in the playoffs. Mostly getting gashed in the running game.

(Last 10 years - prior to 2018)
Bengals 2009 @ home against Jets - Gave up 171 rushing yards and 2 TDs. Allowed 12/15 182 yards 1TD/0INT to Mark Sanchez. 0 sacks, 0 INTs, 0 FFs, lost 24-14 in the Wildcard round.
Bengals 2011 @ Houston - Gave up 188 rushing yards and 2TDs. Passing game was ok; 11/20, 159 yards 1TD/0INT to T.J. Yates. 2 sacks, 0 INTS, 0 FFs Lost 31 - 10 in Wildcard round.
Bengals 2012 @ Houston - Gave up 158 Rushing yards and 1 rushing TD. Matt Schaub went 29/38 for 262 yards 0TD/1INT. 0 Sacks, 1 INT, 0 FFs
Bengals 2013 @ Home against Chargers - gave up 196 rushing yards and 2 rushing TDs. Rivers went 12/16 for 128 yards and 1TD/0INT. 1 sack, 0 INT, 0 FFs
Seahawks 2015 The defense did pretty well here but the extreme cold definitely played in the favor of defenses on both sides.
NO 2017 - the defense played really well most of the game but then allowed Brees and company to put up 17 points at the worst possible time - in the 4th quarter to all but win the game.
Eagles 2017 Converted 10/14 3rd down attempts. Foles went 26-33 for 352 and 3 TDs, 0 INTs, 141.4 QB rating. 110 rushing yards on 30 carries. No turnovers. 1 Sack

Good post, Cliff. I worry that Zimmer's scheme and approach to defense has a ceiling. His defenses seem built primarily to thrive with a lead and they seem vulnerable to a good running team with the determination and personnel to stick it to them on the ground. Those playoff stats certainly appear to reflect that. It's been apparent in their last 3 games against playoff-caliber opponents (CHI, NE and SEA) too. The Lions clearly thought running the ball was their best bet to win on Sunday but thankfully, they weren't up the task.

Maybe this will be the year we see a Zimmer defense reach the postseason and excel there but I think the history is a bit worrisome. You cited 7 playoff games above. That's a substantial sampling.

What were the final scores in those games? How many points did the offense give up? Was the defense on the field most of the game?

[Cliff]

What were the final scores in those games? How many points did the offense give up? Was the defense on the field most of the game?

By you posting this I gather you have the internet and the ability to look this up. I'm not sure what those stats are. I spent a decent little piece of time putting the above together so you're welcome to look up the scores and T.O.P. for those games but I feel I've done my part

If I had to guess his defense was on the field a *ton* in those first 4 games considering they gave up 171, 188, 158, and 196 respectively. When the other team is rushing with that much success it generally keep the defense on the field.

[StumpHunter]

What were the final scores in those games? How many points did the offense give up? Was the defense on the field most of the game?

By you posting this I gather you have the internet and the ability to look this up. I'm not sure what those stats are. I spent a decent little piece of time putting the above together so you're welcome to look up the scores and T.O.P. for those games but I feel I've done my part

If I had to guess his defense was on the field a *ton* in those first 4 games considering they gave up 171, 188, 158, and 196 respectively. When the other team is rushing with that much success it generally keep the defense on the field.

It could also mean the other side of the ball has done nothing and the opposition was just grinding it out against a defense that was on the field the whole game.

In the playoff games lost in Cinci, Andy dalton threw 6 picks in 3 games compared to just one TD and never had a rating over 67. When a QB plays that poorly, the other team is going to run a lot. The most the offense scored in his four games as DC was 14 points. In those 4 games they turned it over 10 times.

I didn't watch any of those games closely enough to evaluate Zims defenses, but the lack of scoring and turnovers sure do point to lopsided games that had little to do with how well the D was playing.

I did watch Zims games here, and in 2 out of 3 his D has played well. The Saints game was well in hand until a bad pick by Keenum put them back in it. A good starting QB would have had us blowing out the Saints and who knows what happens if the team wasn't emotionally drained by that miracle win in that eagles game?

[Cliff]

It could also mean the other side of the ball has done nothing and the opposition was just grinding it out against a defense that was on the field the whole game.

In the playoff games lost in Cinci, Andy dalton threw 6 picks in 3 games compared to just one TD and never had a rating over 67. When a QB plays that poorly, the other team is going to run a lot. The most the offense scored in his four games as DC was 14 points. In those 4 games they turned it over 10 times.

I didn't watch any of those games closely enough to evaluate Zims defenses, but the lack of scoring and turnovers sure do point to lopsided games that had little to do with how well the D was playing.

I did watch Zims games here, and in 2 out of 3 his D has played well. The Saints game was well in hand until a bad pick by Keenum put them back in it. A good starting QB would have had us blowing out the Saints and who knows what happens if the team wasn't emotionally drained by that miracle win in that eagles game?

The point of looking at stats and scores over a period of time is to get a feel for overall performance. One of Zimmer's defenses giving up 150+ yards in a single playoff game is pretty meaningless on it's own. 4 in a row is a trend.

If you want to go into the details of each game then you can do that but otherwise you're speculating. Maybe the offense had issues, maybe a running back fumbled, maybe Marvin Lewis took over calling the defense in the playoffs? I don't know.

The fact is that his defenses haven't done well in the playoffs statistically. We watched the 2017 defense implode against the Saints in the 4th quarter and get dominated by the Eagles. I don't know why it's difficult to imagine his previous defenses getting exploited in the playoffs especially when you look at the statistics.

Maybe one day I'll feel like going back and watch every playoff game Zimmer has coached but today is not that day.

[Mothman]

It could also mean the other side of the ball has done nothing and the opposition was just grinding it out against a defense that was on the field the whole game.

In the playoff games lost in Cinci, Andy dalton threw 6 picks in 3 games compared to just one TD and never had a rating over 67. When a QB plays that poorly, the other team is going to run a lot. The most the offense scored in his four games as DC was 14 points. In those 4 games they turned it over 10 times.

I didn't watch any of those games closely enough to evaluate Zims defenses, but the lack of scoring and turnovers sure do point to lopsided games that had little to do with how well the D was playing.

I did watch Zims games here, and in 2 out of 3 his D has played well. The Saints game was well in hand until a bad pick by Keenum put them back in it. A good starting QB would have had us blowing out the Saints and who knows what happens if the team wasn't emotionally drained by that miracle win in that eagles game?

The point of looking at stats and scores over a period of time is to get a feel for overall performance. One of Zimmer's defenses giving up 150+ yards in a single playoff game is pretty meaningless on it's own. 4 in a row is a trend.

If you want to go into the details of each game then you can do that but otherwise you're speculating. Maybe the offense had issues, maybe a running back fumbled, maybe Marvin Lewis took over calling the defense in the playoffs? I don't know.

The fact is that his defenses haven't done well in the playoffs statistically. We watched the 2017 defense implode against the Saints in the 4th quarter and get dominated by the Eagles. I don't know why it's difficult to imagine his previous defenses getting exploited in the playoffs especially when you look at the statistics.

Maybe one day I'll feel like going back and watch every playoff game Zimmer has coached but today is not that day.

I saw most of those Bengals playoff losses and the defenses didn't play particularly well.

[PurpleMustReign]

The point of looking at stats and scores over a period of time is to get a feel for overall performance. One of Zimmer's defenses giving up 150+ yards in a single playoff game is pretty meaningless on it's own. 4 in a row is a trend.

If you want to go into the details of each game then you can do that but otherwise you're speculating. Maybe the offense had issues, maybe a running back fumbled, maybe Marvin Lewis took over calling the defense in the playoffs? I don't know.

The fact is that his defenses haven't done well in the playoffs statistically. We watched the 2017 defense implode against the Saints in the 4th quarter and get dominated by the Eagles. I don't know why it's difficult to imagine his previous defenses getting exploited in the playoffs especially when you look at the statistics.

Maybe one day I'll feel like going back and watch every playoff game Zimmer has coached but today is not that day.

I saw most of those Bengals playoff losses and the defenses didn't play particularly well.

I did too. The one against San Diego they played ok but couldn't get a stop when needed.
For the life of me I don't understand why a defens's stats could be much worse than the regular season and somehow it is the offens's fault that they lost the game. It amazes me how hard people try to prove their point despite a wealth of stats (which people take so much stock in) that show a contrary message. Regardless, Zimmer's playoff defenses have been very poor, going back to his days in Dallas. What more proof can someone need?

[allday1991]

How can dline be number 3? We are leading the league with 50 sacks.... already 12 more than last year . Also rb depth? Boone is fine and rbs have been the most plentiful spot the last few years imo. Phillip lindsay, nick chubb, sony michelle, tarik cohen, sasquon barkley, james conner, gus edwards etc. All great to good rbs drafted within the last two years, many were undrafted

[fiestavike]

How can dline be number 3? We are leading the league with 50 sacks.... already 12 more than last year . Also rb depth? Boone is fine and rbs have been the most plentiful spot the last few years imo. Phillip lindsay, nick chubb, sony michelle, tarik cohen, sasquon barkley, james conner, gus edwards etc. All great to good rbs drafted within the last two years, many were undrafted

I don't contend that they need to spend an early pick on a RB. I'd be happy with a late pick. I really wanted Tarik Cohen, last year Kalen Ballage...I've got no problem waiting until later in the draft, but I think they've been weak at RB for a long while. From the last couple years of Peterson being at odds with the system, to McKinnon being the lead back, to lacking a reliable backup to Cook. Cook is a good all around back. Murray can suffice as a spot sub with some big play potential, they still need a good between the tackles guy who runs with a low center of gravity. If they have that guy on the roster, they aren't using him.

[StumpHunter]

The point of looking at stats and scores over a period of time is to get a feel for overall performance. One of Zimmer's defenses giving up 150+ yards in a single playoff game is pretty meaningless on it's own. 4 in a row is a trend.

If you want to go into the details of each game then you can do that but otherwise you're speculating. Maybe the offense had issues, maybe a running back fumbled, maybe Marvin Lewis took over calling the defense in the playoffs? I don't know.

The fact is that his defenses haven't done well in the playoffs statistically. We watched the 2017 defense implode against the Saints in the 4th quarter and get dominated by the Eagles. I don't know why it's difficult to imagine his previous defenses getting exploited in the playoffs especially when you look at the statistics.

Maybe one day I'll feel like going back and watch every playoff game Zimmer has coached but today is not that day.

I saw most of those Bengals playoff losses and the defenses didn't play particularly well.

If you watched those Bengles games and came away with anything other than that Dalton sucks, you would be in the minority.

It is no coincidence Zim has won the only game the offense has scored more than 14 points in. But keep blaming the D.

[Cliff]

It is no coincidence Zim has won the only game the offense has scored more than 14 points in. But keep blaming the D.

Did Dalton start playing defensive lineman and I missed it? The defense gives up 196 rushing yards in a game and you're figuring out a way to pin that on Dalton?