Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

[Holzberg]

Spot on. Frazier's defense was embarrassingly bad and he was a "defensive coach". Jim, I would love to know why you believe Frazier was a "good coach". Because those were your exact words. And if you look at the guys track record, it's quite laughable. He cant hold onto a DC job for more than a year. Doesnt coach offense. And flopped as a HC. Where does anyone see "good coach" in that?????

Zim doesn't coach offense and his HC abilities are questionable so far. I agree with you... a HC should have knowledge of all 3 phases of the game and as you pointed that out about Frazier, than I am going to point that out for Zim. As for the defense under Zim who is a defensive coach, it has been good and bad. So far neither of these coaches have been able to get things going consistently on both sides of the ball.

[mansquatch]

Might some of Zimmer's issues be experience related?

Just to point something out: Belicick, by any measure the modern day coaching gold standard, was the HC in CLE from 91-95 amassing a 36-44 record with only one winning season. His first season in NE was 2000 and that was also a losing effort. Then in 2001 he won it all and the rest is history.

It took Belicick 6 season with two different franchises to finally find the winning formula.

Just food for thought.

I see three major questions/ issues for Zimmer this off season:

1.) Can he get these psyche related issues to bed with this team so they do not come out flat in 2-4 games
2.) Can he put in place an offensive coaching staff that can do better than the bottom 1/3 of the league
3.) Can he, in conjunction with the #2, fix the OL to point where it can be competitive in the NFL

I would like to add that I wonder if he adjusted his style in reference to item #1 above. Zimmer used to preach a lot about character and fight in his guys. I wonder if he relaxed the message some? No evidence, just that we see less of it than we did in 2014 and I wonder if that is a contributing factor?

[Holzberg]

Might some of Zimmer's issues be experience related?

Just to point something out: Belicick, by any measure the modern day coaching gold standard, was the HC in CLE from 91-95 amassing a 36-44 record with only one winning season. His first season in NE was 2000 and that was also a losing effort. Then in 2001 he won it all and the rest is history.

It took Belicick 6 season with two different franchises to finally find the winning formula.

Just food for thought.

I see three major questions/ issues for Zimmer this off season:

1.) Can he get these psyche related issues to bed with this team so they do not come out flat in 2-4 games
2.) Can he put in place an offensive coaching staff that can do better than the bottom 1/3 of the league
3.) Can he, in conjunction with the #2, fix the OL to point where it can be competitive in the NFL

I would like to add that I wonder if he adjusted his style in reference to item #1 above. Zimmer used to preach a lot about character and fight in his guys. I wonder if he relaxed the message some? No evidence, just that we see less of it than we did in 2014 and I wonder if that is a contributing factor?

Belichick learned that the only way you can win is to cheat

[S197]

Murphy's critical of Zimmer in the column above and a few days ago, the Strib's Jim Souhan was too:

Souhan: Zimmer's offseason job? Re-establish himself as a leader
Zimmer survived this season and the team's somewhat historic collapse because the Vikings have fully committed to him and because he had success last season but he has to do a better job. In his press conference, he spoke about self-assessment, soul-searching and examining every aspect of the team. I believe he's sincere about all of the above but I hope he'll be able to recognize where he made mistakes this season and do a better job in the future because if the Vikes are going to win a Super Bowl on his watch, he needs to do a better job.

God I can't stand the Tribune's writers. Where do I begin with Souhan:

The strangest part of the Vikings’ collapse hasn’t been injuries, which occur with frightening regularity around the league, or Peterson’s inevitable decline.

Frightening regularity? Really? So other teams have had their QB lost for the season from a non-contact drill and 9 different combinations at offensive line. This is a "frighteningly" regular occurrence? I'd love Souhan to give a single example of this norm.

Too often, Zimmer sounded like he was absolving himself of blame, even though his clock management led to one of the season’s most important losses, at home against Detroit.

What? When has Zimmer ever absolved himself of blame? The Brian Murphy article is one of countless where Zimmer has taken the blame. I'd challenge Souhan to provide one citation for this claim.

As for clock management against Detroit, if Walsh could be useful for once and mortar the kickoff, this would be a total non-issue. What if Patterson actually caught the dropped TD? The Lions would have had a substantial amount of more time. What I'm saying is there were so many variables in that game, to throw it all on clock management is really misguided.

I realize I'm yelling at someone who will never read this but it annoys me to the nth degree these jokers can call themselves writers.

[Mothman]

To be fair, Jim, I am baffled by the same thing as PHP. Your position on Zimmer and Frazier is unconventional. I think most of us see more promise in Zimmer than we ever saw in Frazier. (For me, quite a bit more). What's more, many of us think that the way he refashioned a terrible D into a solid unit gives us hope that he can make a SB contender. What always troubled me about Frazier is that he played in the secondary, but as a coach our secondary was unbelievably bad. IMO, he had no vision whatsoever when it came to coaching defense. Juxtaposed to Frazier, Zimmer looks like a defensive mastermind.

Now, in support of your unconventional position on Zimmer (which I'd characterize as disillusioned/critical/reserving judgment); he definitely showed several Achilles heals this season. You have pointed them out well, so I won't rehash them now. But for those of us who perhaps think too highly of Zimmer, it's good to read your points to mitigate our optimism.

Thank you.

Regarding Frazier: I posted some detailed replies earlier this afternoon. Perhaps you saw them. I've since deleted them because I think this thread should remain focused on Mike Zimmer and the current Vikings, not on a head coach who's been gone for 3 seasons now.

[Texas Vike]

Thank you.

Regarding Frazier: I posted some detailed replies earlier this afternoon. Perhaps you saw them. I've since deleted them because I think this thread should remain focused on Mike Zimmer and the current Vikings, not on a head coach who's been gone for 3 seasons now.

I didn't catch them, but I understand your decision to keep the focus on Zimmer.

[Mothman]

I didn't catch them, but I understand your decision to keep the focus on Zimmer.

Thanks. It just seems a little more relevant in 2017.

Wow... it's 2017!

[Mothman]

Might some of Zimmer's issues be experience related?

That seems likely to me.

I see three major questions/ issues for Zimmer this off season:

1.) Can he get these psyche related issues to bed with this team so they do not come out flat in 2-4 games
2.) Can he put in place an offensive coaching staff that can do better than the bottom 1/3 of the league
3.) Can he, in conjunction with the #2, fix the OL to point where it can be competitive in the NFL

I would like to add that I wonder if he adjusted his style in reference to item #1 above. Zimmer used to preach a lot about character and fight in his guys. I wonder if he relaxed the message some? No evidence, just that we see less of it than we did in 2014 and I wonder if that is a contributing factor?[/quote]

Maybe but wasn't he just saying a few weeks ago that he's looking for players who will fight? It's also possible that his somewhat unrelenting approach could be wearing thin on some players.

Anyway, that's a good list. I think the answer to #2 has to begin with a decision from him about just what kind of offense will best compliment his defense. Answering that should guide his choices.

I think he also needs to figure out how to improve the running game and the run defense. Fixing the OL should help the former.

[J. Kapp 11]

I keep going back to the mistakes he's made. So many of them seem to originate when he's dealing with the media. Yeah, he mismanaged the clock against Detroit. But that was no more the reason for the clock than Blair Walsh's ineptitude (missed XP, failure to keep the last kickoff out of the end zone).

Look, Zimmer is not a "perfect coach." Neither is Belichick, and he certainly wasn't in his first 6 seasons, as others have pointed out. But there is no doubt ... the players will do just about anything for Mike Zimmer. People far more in the know than us continue to say he's one of the best leaders of men in the NFL.

And as much as some of you don't want to hear it, I'm gonna say it again -- the man was dealt a sh*t hand this season. You don't lose your starting quarterback, HOF running back, and both starting tackles and not suffer in SOME way. The losing streak sucked while it happened, but it was practically inevitable. The far more surprising thing was the 5-0 start.

In hindsight, almost any of us gladly would have taken the offensive line we were sporting in training camp, suspect as is was, over the hot mess we finished the season with. No, they weren't the Dallas Cowboys, but they also weren't the Who's Who of sub-replacement-level oafs that ended the season. And even with that horrendous line, the Vikings still managed to average 305 YPG passing over the last quarter of the season.

I will make this not-so-bold statement: If the original offensive line had played the entire season, the Vikings would be preparing for a home playoff game right now. Would they have been Super Bowl favorites? Probably not. But they wouldn't have lost either game to Detroit, and they likely wouldn't have lost to Dallas. That alone would have made them the #2 or #3 seed with 11 wins. Speculation? Sure. That's what we do here. But it's hard to argue, especially the two games against Detroit.

The point being ... we're assigning a lot of negatives to Mike Zimmer for poorly handing a season that 9 of 10 coaches wouldn't have handled any better.

[Pondering Her Percy]

The point being ... we're assigning a lot of negatives to Mike Zimmer for poorly handing a season that 9 of 10 coaches wouldn't have handled any better.

Like I've said before, most coaches would have been under a .500 record with this team and the injuries if you ask me

[Pondering Her Percy]

As for the defense under Zim who is a defensive coach, it has been good and bad. So far neither of these coaches have been able to get things going consistently on both sides of the ball.

Good and bad?? This defense has done nothing but gone up since he's gotten here and him and Spielman are the ones that brought in the talent. Not sure how you can say its been "bad". Within the last two years, this defense has been one of the best in the NFL. If you're going to pick apart 2 games this year and 1 maybe 2 last year, go ahead, but overall, this defense under Zimmer has been very good. Not just good. Frazier oversaw the last ranked defense in the NFL and Zim has oversaw one of the best in the league for 2 years now. After being left with Fraziers garbage defense. There is no comparison. Literally zero. Especially when it comes to defense.

[Alaskan]

I haven't been posting here on the forum for long, but I have been reading topics for years..... and still read more than I post, but some of these topics are just to much for me to keep quiet.

I am a Zimmer fan. I believe Zimmer will lead this franchise to the promise land. He is a hard nosed, passionate, players coach. His football IQ is as high as nearly anyone's in the business, his peers praise him as one of he best in the league. You don't get the likes of Belichick and Big Tuna himself heaping praise on you for no reason. When he came to MN he was handed a turd and in three years (two really) he has turned them into legitimate contenders. Injuries happen. Its not an excuse, its reality, this season failures were almost entirely due to injuries........and a damaged kicker. Zim will never admit that though. Some would say Norv leaving hurt to, I am not one of those people. Good riddance! Being forced to keep AP and a damaged kicker have been the two biggest things to impact Zims tenure thus far outside of the injuries. Without AP's wasted money the past 3 years they could have brought in some talent at some position groups of need to provide more balance and quality depth to an already well built roster. The new stadium.......more like the Wilf's greed has cost this team some Wins. Zimmer is not the problem, he's the solution!

[Alaskan]

I keep going back to the mistakes he's made. So many of them seem to originate when he's dealing with the media. Yeah, he mismanaged the clock against Detroit. But that was no more the reason for the clock than Blair Walsh's ineptitude (missed XP, failure to keep the last kickoff out of the end zone).

Look, Zimmer is not a "perfect coach." Neither is Belichick, and he certainly wasn't in his first 6 seasons, as others have pointed out. But there is no doubt ... the players will do just about anything for Mike Zimmer. People far more in the know than us continue to say he's one of the best leaders of men in the NFL.

And as much as some of you don't want to hear it, I'm gonna say it again -- the man was dealt a sh*t hand this season. You don't lose your starting quarterback, HOF running back, and both starting tackles and not suffer in SOME way. The losing streak sucked while it happened, but it was practically inevitable. The far more surprising thing was the 5-0 start.

In hindsight, almost any of us gladly would have taken the offensive line we were sporting in training camp, suspect as is was, over the hot mess we finished the season with. No, they weren't the Dallas Cowboys, but they also weren't the Who's Who of sub-replacement-level oafs that ended the season. And even with that horrendous line, the Vikings still managed to average 305 YPG passing over the last quarter of the season.

I will make this not-so-bold statement: If the original offensive line had played the entire season, the Vikings would be preparing for a home playoff game right now. Would they have been Super Bowl favorites? Probably not. But they wouldn't have lost either game to Detroit, and they likely wouldn't have lost to Dallas. That alone would have made them the #2 or #3 seed with 11 wins. Speculation? Sure. That's what we do here. But it's hard to argue, especially the two games against Detroit.

The point being ... we're assigning a lot of negatives to Mike Zimmer for poorly handing a season that 9 of 10 coaches wouldn't have handled any better.

Spot on! Couldn't have said it better myself

[Thaumaturgist]

Maybe but wasn't he just saying a few weeks ago that he's looking for players who will fight? It's also possible that his somewhat unrelenting approach could be wearing thin on some players.

I think this approach works fine when you're winning, but when things start going south, that same message can be a bit tougher to swallow.

[Holzberg]

Good and bad?? This defense has done nothing but gone up since he's gotten here and him and Spielman are the ones that brought in the talent. Not sure how you can say its been "bad". Within the last two years, this defense has been one of the best in the NFL. If you're going to pick apart 2 games this year and 1 maybe 2 last year, go ahead, but overall, this defense under Zimmer has been very good. Not just good. Frazier oversaw the last ranked defense in the NFL and Zim has oversaw one of the best in the league for 2 years now. After being left with Fraziers garbage defense. There is no comparison. Literally zero. Especially when it comes to defense.

You can't say it has been all good and then say we forget about 2 games. Besides, it wasn't just 2 games. As other writers have posted, the defense was not able to close out games. The defense flat out broke in 2 minute drills. Maybe the play of the offense affected the defense, but either way, let's see how Zim and the players respond next year. I think Zim has finally realized that there will be no excuses next year and if it doesn't go better then he will be without a job. Speaking of which, he was interviewed before by a couple other teams and it didn't go well. So if he loses his HC job with the Vikings, he may never get another opportunity. But maybe DC is where he should stay at that point because that's his greatest strength.