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It seem's Frazier wasn't as good of a guy as he was made out to be!

Not a religious person and I know it's not a topic of discussion for this board but that's what I hate most about it. When people use their religion and "what the bible says" to justify basically being dicks to other people. LAME!

Good for Kluwe though, he's done a lot of good things and not all of them include playing football!

The Breeze wrote: I think, when you have a guy telling younger people that every so and so should be put on an island and nuked, that the distraction is not the punter....nor should the fact that the messenger being a punter should have any bearing on the relevance of the message itself.

I would think that this team would do itself a great favor in removing the spineless religious idealogues from it's foundation.
Kluwe is correct in calling them cowards....especially when ownership supports his position.

This is exactly the same dynamic that took place in Happy Valley.....bootlicking cowards afraid of rocking the boat.

I think it's a far cry from what happened in the ironically named Happy Valley but right now we only have Kluwe's word for it and even within his statement, it's pretty clear his assertion that Frazier and Spielman are cowards is based on some assumptions. I think we should await more than bitter remarks from a punter who was released and couldn't catch on with another team before taking Kluwe at his word.

A real interesting story IMO.

It IS interesting but right now, it's just a story, with no confirmation whatsoever and from the most potentially biased source imaginable, an unemployed player targeting the people who cut him. It's possible that every word of it is true but I can't just accept accusations as accurate truth without something more to support their veracity.

Mothman wrote:Thanks for the link. Perhaps Chris Kluwe should take his own advice and look in the mirror.

I'm not sure what you mean. Is Kluwe not the person he professes to be?

Referring to Frazier and Spielman as cowards based on the story he presented comes across as the view of a bitter man, and not one without significant bias.

I tend to agree. I don't even necessarily blame Frazier either. He just wants a football team focused on football. I'm not sure by not 100% backing Kluwe that necessarily makes him a coward. From a purely football perspective, releasing Kluwe was pretty close to a net-even (and you have a younger, cheaper guy doing about the same job). However I am a bit conflicted. Who is Frazier (or anyone, I suppose) to tell someone not to stand up for what they believe in?

It would be interesting to get some perspectives on Kluwe's story from Priefer, Frazier, Spielman and especially from some of Kluwe's teammates.

I suspect we'll get some comments. It'll be interesting who those comments come from. "Anonymous players" or those that aren't on the Vikings anymore? It also may depend on what happens with Priefer. I bet you a million dollars you won't have a current player saying anything negative about Spielman or Priefer (at least not without speaking on the condition of anonymity). I'm sure we won't get much substance from Spielman, Frazier or Priefer, though. Probably the standard, "We're sorry Chris felt this way. We're glad for his years of service to our organization and wish him the best in his career." No way they allow comments that will add fuel to the fire. Though the one guy to watch will be Priefer. He comes across as a bit of a loose cannon at times. However even then I doubt he provides anything substantive as it could also have legal (and career) ramifications.

If what he wrote IS accurate, it certainly makes Priefer sound awful.

Indeed. Not just from his views, but the way he conducted himself from a professional perspective. Not great when the guy has been talked about for promotions and may be in need of a new position anyway.

The Breeze wrote:[I think, when you have a guy telling younger people that every so and so should be put on an island and nuked, that the distraction is not the punter....nor should the fact that the messenger being a punter should have any bearing on the relevance of the message itself.

I would think that this team would do itself a great favor in removing the spineless religious idealogues from it's foundation.
Kluwe is correct in calling them cowards....especially when ownership supports his position.

This assumes, of course, that Kluwe's presentation of the events is accurate. I'm not saying it's not, it's just that I've learned not to jump to conclusions when I've only heard one side of the story.

Just Me wrote: This assumes, of course, that Kluwe's presentation of the events is accurate. I'm not saying it's not, it's just that I've learned not to jump to conclusions when I've only heard one side of the story.

That's a fair perspective, however, it's not just a random person. Kluwe has earned the benefit of the doubt from my, and I'm sure lot's of other people's, perspectives.

dead_poet wrote: I'm not sure what you mean. Is Kluwe not the person he professes to be?

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Kluwe made a point about the importance of "doing the right thing" while, at the same time, calling Frazier and Spielman cowards. I was clumsily trying to say he should have looked in the mirror and asked himself if that was the right to do.

I suspect we'll get some comments. It'll be interesting who those comments come from. "Anonymous players" or those that aren't on the Vikings anymore? It also may depend on what happens with Priefer. I bet you a million dollars you won't have a current player saying anything negative about Spielman or Priefer (at least not without speaking on the condition of anonymity).

There's no way I'm taking that bet!

I'm sure we won't get much substance from Spielman, Frazier or Priefer, though. Probably the standard, "We're sorry Chris felt this way. We're glad for his years of service to our organization and wish him the best in his career." No way they allow comments that will add fuel to the fire. Though the one guy to watch will be Priefer. He comes across as a bit of a loose cannon at times. However even then I doubt he provides anything substantive as it could also have legal (and career) ramifications.

Not to mention that it could be a career suicide. I'm guessing you're right about what we'll hear from Priefer, Spielman and Frazier (assuming we hear anything from them).

Indeed. Not just from his views, but the way he conducted himself from a professional perspective. Not great when the guy has been talked about for promotions and may be in need of a new position anyway.

Exactly!

What an attention whore. He gets fired, holds a grudge, and no other team wants anything to do with him, because he was a bad punter, with a huge ego. At least Loche is a rookie (horrible pick by Sielman, but that's for another thread). All Kluwe does is throw stuff out there and sees what sticks, or what can get him more attention. I bet the Vikings just ignore him. He isn't worth the time.

Kluwe essentially burned any last bridge he had with the NFL by writing this article and he knows it. As he mentions, he wrote it to make sure Priefer never has a job again. I find it extremely hard to believe he would fabricate a story to this magnitude if he was simply jaded about being cut. How much Frazier and Spielman knew about what went on between Kluwe and his coach is debatable but I believe everything he says about Priefer. It's truly sad because Priefer was probably the one guy that might have been worth keeping around but that's exactly why Kluwe needed to speak out and I'm glad he did.

Mothman wrote: I think it's a far cry from what happened in the ironically named Happy Valley but right now we only have Kluwe's word for it and even within his statement, it's pretty clear his assertion that Frazier and Spielman are cowards is based on some assumptions. I think we should await more than bitter remarks from a punter who was released and couldn't catch on with another team before taking Kluwe at his word.
It IS interesting but right now, it's just a story, with no confirmation whatsoever and from the most potentially biased source imaginable, an unemployed player targeting the people who cut him. It's possible that every word of it is true but I can't just accept accusations as accurate truth without something more to support their veracity.

I fully accept it. Kluwe is smart enough to know what he is doing, there would be no reason to make any of this up. None.
His work and dedication to tolerance makes this admission par for the course, he would be a hypocrite if he kept silent on this and I commend him for waiting as he did in order not to have the team engulfed in a big crapstorm during the season.

As far is it being a far cry from happy valley, I completly disagree. The dynamic of not speaking up when something wrong is going on for fear of what might be of consequence is exactly what the issue is. Just a matter of degree of said wrong.

But anyone who thinks it's permissable for a coach/ mentor to advocate to his pupils the rounding up of people and killing them just for their sexual orientation is wrong. To me this is one of those black and white issues and I've evolved my own perspective on the subject as I've aged. I feel there is no longer any need in our society for intolerance of people who are not harming others with their behavior or belief systems.

I don't doubt this story at all. I understand the difficulties it would raise for someone like Frazier, but eventually people have to prove their mettle or someone else does it for them.

I used to think that Kluwe was attentiong whoring under achiever....but after reading much of what he has written, I see him as someone who is extremely intelligent and human.
I'm glad Frazier is gone and I hope they fire the "special" teams coach.

S197 wrote:Kluwe essentially burned any last bridge he had with the NFL by writing this article and he knows it. As he mentions, he wrote it to make sure Priefer never has a job again. I find it extremely hard to believe he would fabricate a story to this magnitude if he was simply jaded about being cut. How much Frazier and Spielman knew about what went on between Kluwe and his coach is debatable but I believe everything he says about Priefer. It's truly sad because Priefer was probably the one guy that might have been worth keeping around but that's exactly why Kluwe needed to speak out and I'm glad he did.

I'm inclined to lend it more credit to Kluwe's recollection for the reasons you mentioned, but let's not forget he was also cut by the Raiders. I think his career in the NFL was pretty much done before he wrote this article, so I'm not excluding the possibility this is a "shot" at the man whom he believes cost him his job. In the end, none of us really have a Kluwe what went on, but hopefully the Wilfs will look into it, and if true, get rid of Priefer.

Aw, there we have Kluwe in all his true, self-centered glory. The Vikings couldn't get rid of that assh0le fast enough for me.

Just Me wrote: This assumes, of course, that Kluwe's presentation of the events is accurate. I'm not saying it's not, it's just that I've learned not to jump to conclusions when I've only heard one side of the story.

I've learned that too. I've also learned to know when a person is scarificing themself for a cause that is bigger than them, which is what I see going on here.

I'll wager that "the other side" of the story will amount to sweeping it under the rug ala 'sour grape' references and the like.

Unless, another player decides to speak up on some of the quotes....
If Kluwe had done this before Frazier got fired there would have been no way to fire Priefer unless another guy stood up. Now they can fire him the same way they did Kluwe......karma and such.

Kluwe is a sharp dude.

Well, heading into the playoffs the Bengals are in DESPERATE need of a punter, and they've apparently not called him, so I'd agree there is probably not a role for Kluwe in the NFL moving forward.

I think his assertions against Frazier in particular probably revolve around all the "Frazier is a great guy, a great man, etc." talk. I can see Chris being bitter about that supposed "greatness" not showing up in support for his "right" to speak out.

What Chris probably miscalculated was that no one below the Wilfs likely felt secure enough in their job to back him up. If the Frazier/Spielman combo was running along at a .700 winning percentage, things may have turned out differently.

Part of speaking out for what you believe in (and ignoring requests from your employer to cease) involves the chance that you are screwing your career. Seems on moral grounds Chris got what he wanted, but that is a stiff price to pay and it now sounds like he'd prefer not to pay it. I get it, I feel sorry for him. But sometimes The Man wins.

Eli wrote:Aw, there we have Kluwe in all his true, self-centered glory. The Vikings couldn't get rid of that assh0le fast enough for me.

me and you both, cant stand the guy and dont know why people are so enamored with him

The Breeze wrote:I fully accept it. Kluwe is smart enough to know what he is doing, there would be no reason to make any of this up. None.

I'm not suggesting he made any of it up but he's giving us his perceptions of what happened, based solely on his memories of events. He's providing comments from people as direct quotes, as if he recorded and transcribed them, but he clearly didn't so we don't know if he has them right. Human memory and perception are flawed, especially once emotions get involved, and some of the situations he described were clearly emotionally charged. It's not his integrity I question, it's his ability to provide a completely accurate picture of events and motivations that we can trust without question.

I used to think that Kluwe was attentiong whoring under achiever....but after reading much of what he has written, I see him as someone who is extremely intelligent and human.

He is that... I think he also comes across as bitter and very emotional and consequently, I don't trust his account of events to be unbiased.