Vikings Message Board.Com

mondry wrote: I'm looking around and I just can't seem to find many teams that can go 5-6 corners deep and be okay. Which teams were you talking about that are a good example of having that kind of depth?

I'll make a deal with you: if you can show me where I was actually talking about teams that could go 5 or 6 corners deep and be okay, I'll be happy to answer that question.

I'm just kidding above but seriously, I agree with you that it's not realistic for a team to be able to compete at certain positions once they have to go too far down their depth chart. I've been saying for some time now that injuries have had a very real impact on the quality of the team's performance.

Injuries, plus Fraizer and his staff never did a good job developing talent. Not every player is going to have TALENT stamped on their forehead. A coach has got to weed out the trash sooner, and the scouts have to be better. Esp. at the QB spot. I don't think Spielman is good either, but he isn't as bad as the wins/losses this team has now. That's on Fraizer. And Williams. And the rest of his staff.

I don't think Spielman is good either, but he isn't as bad as the wins/losses this team has now. That's on Fraizer. And Williams. And the rest of his staff.

Ponder/Cassel/Freeman at QB

And a defense with either washed up has beens, or barely any NFL experience rookies

Not sure many coaches could succeed with the "talent" Spielman has put together.

From what I'm reading there was no GM on the Vikings pre Spielman and since he arrived he had a huge impact on the drafting of guys like AP, Harvin, Rudolph, etc. In terms of talent evaluation many of the first round picks for the Vikings have panned out well, or been very solid players and one could relate that to Spielman himself.

FailedtoOpen wrote:From what I'm reading there was no GM on the Vikings pre Spielman and since he arrived he had a huge impact on the drafting of guys like AP, Harvin, Rudolph, etc. In terms of talent evaluation many of the first round picks for the Vikings have panned out well, or been very solid players and one could relate that to Spielman himself.

Childress had final say on AP and Harvin...and what about the other dozens upon dozens of players Spielman helped "evaluate"? Most of which aren't even worth keeping on a roster other than their miniscule salary. Robison, Griffen...any other non-1st round defensive players he helped "evaluate" that were successful? What about non-1st rounders on offense that were drafted since he was signed? A center (also before Spielman was given control of the roster)? Rice? (pre-Spielman control)

Or do we just blame Childress for bad picks because they were "his"? We couldn't judge Spielman when he was given the increased power because the picks before that weren't on him because of his lack of final say, but now 3 years later he's inherited the positives from before, and credit for rookies? Pro bowl kicker...he have a ticket to the pro bowl now? Kalil? Still a top 3 tackle like last year? And do the same for a couple rookies their first season again this year?

Heck, he needs at least 5 years before we can firmly place any real roster decisions on him. Let's extend him. And hey, he sure seems to have done a good enough job on this roster...let's let him pick the next quarterback and some coaches too! That way 7-10 years post-Spielman getting the "final say" his dirty rotten finger prints will still be costing this team on the field.

ohhh the negativity....

Demi wrote:Ponder/Cassel/Freeman at QB

Cassel is easily one of the best backup QB's out there and is currently the best QB we have. So for you to accuse Spielman signing Cassel a bad decision makes absolutely no sense. As for Freeman, why not pick him up??? Why not take that chance??? It was the COACHES that put him in a bad situation, not Spielman. If Freeman went somewhere else, wasnt thrown to the wolves right away, and played well, I'm sure you would be saying Spielman was an idiot for not signing him. Our quarterback situation was way worse last year and we still managed to get to the playoffs.

Yeah AP had a great season but he's one player and can only do so much. You need your defense to step up as well and they did. Our defense is very similar to what it was last year but now we are all of the sudden way worse. Possibly because of the scheme and play-calling would be my guess. That defense allows teams to nickel and dime us all the way down the field and kill our time of possession because they are so far backed up. This staff CANNOT make any adjustments. It's just terrible to watch.

Demi wrote:And a defense with either washed up has beens, or barely any NFL experience rookies

Ummmm Brian Robison isnt washed up nor a rookie. Neither is Everson Griffen. Chad Greenway has been playing through a broken wrist and is still making plays for us. Harrison Smith is another one. Erin Henderson, Audie Cole, and Jamarca Sanford have held their own. Rhodes and Floyd have looked promising.

I think you just enjoy being negative to be honest. There are promising players all over this team and many seem to forget, this team is still very young. Remember that in 2012 when Spielman was promoted to GM, he had to do a FULL rebuild. Do you not understand how long that takes?? At LEAST 3 years. I mean do you really think he's going to avoid LB, QB, NT, LG, and CB this offseason??? Highly doubtful. And dont sit there and say he's avoided them for a while now because you have to remember, if he didnt draft a LT, FS, DT, WR, CB, etc. within the last 2 years, you would be complaining about those positions right now instead.

Demi wrote:Not sure many coaches could succeed with the "talent" Spielman has put together.

Wrong. If you're referring to the past 2 seasons where he has been GM, he has brought talented players such as Kalil, Smith, Wright, Walsh, Floyd, Patterson, Rhodes, Locke, Jennings, Felton, Simpson, Cassel, etc. Many of these guys have a bright future with this team. If you're going to sit there and say that's not "talent" then you have some serious blinders on.

It's also very sad that you're going to blame Spielman and avoid the clueless coaching staff we have. Yeah Frazier is a great guy but his lack of making adjustments is like no other. His defensive scheme is very outdated and the play-calling he allows Bill Musgrave to do is horrible. I will admit Musgrave has been a LITTLE better lately but not enough to say so. This coaching staff needs to be gone from top to bottom. No doubt about it.

Demi wrote:Heck, he needs at least 5 years before we can firmly place any real roster decisions on him. Let's extend him. And hey, he sure seems to have done a good enough job on this roster...let's let him pick the next quarterback and some coaches too! That way 7-10 years post-Spielman getting the "final say" his dirty rotten finger prints will still be costing this team on the field.

That might be one of the biggest over-reactions I've ever seen

Demi wrote:What about non-1st rounders on offense that were drafted since he was signed? A center (also before Spielman was given control of the roster)? Rice? (pre-Spielman control)

....Brandon Fusco.....Kyle Rudolph....Jarius Wright. You somehow missed them.

Demi wrote:but now 3 years later he's inherited the positives from before, and credit for rookies?

For the 10th time, it has been 2 years, not 3. Spielman was promoted to GM during the 2012 offseason.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: That might be one of the biggest over-reactions I've ever seen

Then you haven't been around here very long.

Mothman wrote: They were a lot more than a QB away when Spielman was promoted. He was promoted to GM in 2012.

Oh cmon now, they made the playoffs in 2012.

I know I know, I didn't think they were a serious contender, but if the QB position had been more sound, and I don't just mean starter because obviously they didn't have a legit backup either. I think they could have been taken more seriously, the defense was fairly sound last season. But the Packers could have put up 50 had they wanted to in that WC game. Although I don't blame Speilman for everything, I do blame him for having Webb as the primary backup. I sorta liked Webb, but I wasn't on the inside, they should have known he wasn't a guy you wanted to rely on. He still should get a chance to fix the QB position, and if Frazier is indeed gone, I want someone other than the Wilfs making the new hire. They have previously acted too fast on hires, although I understand the Frazier hire, they wanted to keep some stability.

Pondering Her Percy wrote:It's also very sad that you're going to blame Spielman and avoid the clueless coaching staff we have. Yeah Frazier is a great guy but his lack of making adjustments is like no other.

He's been making them all season and he and his staff made plenty of them last year too. That's one of the main reasons they reached the playoffs.

Frazier and the Vikings moved away from playing a lot of cover 2 weeks ago and I don't think most fans even noticed. The main reason teams move up and down the field on the Vikings defense is because the Vikings players get overmatched and can't stop them. Constantly blaming it on coaching/scheme and giving the players a free pass is nothing more than denial of the obvious.

His defensive scheme is very outdated and the play-calling he allows Bill Musgrave to do is horrible.

... and yet it's funny how effective that playcalling looks when the team is executing and AD is running for 2000 yards in a season or the Vikings are matched up against the (apparently unprepared) eagles defense.

The coaching staff have become scapegoats for a frustrated fan base that doesn't want to face the obvious: the roster simply isn't good enough. Maybe the coaching staff isn't either but as Demi said above, I'm not sure any coaching staff could win consistently with the talent on this current Vikings team.

Pondering Her Percy wrote:For the 10th time, it has been 2 years, not 3. Spielman was promoted to GM during the 2012 offseason.

That's correct but Spielman wasn't just twiddling his thumbs in 2011. Childress was gone and Spielman was completely in charge of the draft (which supposedly happened a few years earlier but who knows?). He wasn't GM yet but he had a powerful voice in personnel decisions so we can't just ignore that season. You're correct that Spielman has been GM for two seasons but the rebuilding process began a year earlier, with Spielman playing one of the two key roles.

We really don't know how involved Frazier has been in drafting since he's been head coach. I know Spielman as GM has final say but I'm sure he considers input from his coaching staff.

I say that to say this: I think Frazier will be gone but Spielman returns. I think the Wilfs will want to see how things go with a new coach before pulling the trigger on a new GM.

I'm not saying that's what I would do but it's what I expect will be done.

I inclined to agree with Demi's take regarding the root of it all: ownership. They may have a knack for real estate and a passion for football with a willingness to spend, but they are 4th stringers when it comes to nfl ability.

They impress me as too fast to act in some areas and too slow in others.....indecisive like they have their own form of happy feet in the pocket. A lot of emPHAsis on the wrong sylLAble IMO.


edit to add: I think they will continue to get better but it's anybody's guess as to when it will manifest.

Maybe Frazier isn't as bad of a gm as Spielman is.

Wasn't it 2012 when Frazier coached the Senior Bowl? This was also the draft we found two diamonds in the rough(Smith and Walsh)

Frazier doesn't have the time to watch every college game and report to Spielman on what he wants. He can only tell Spielman where he thinks the team is lacking. Every bum player is on Spielman, and maybe Childress. But even Childress would have found better talent to replace some of these bums. QB situation would still be a mess, Mcnabb and TJack, instead of the current three stooges.

Mothman wrote:
... and yet it's funny how effective that playcalling looks when the team is executing and AD is running for 2000 yards in a season or the Vikings are matched up against the (apparently unprepared) eagles defense.

Well for me you hit that on the head with your last part. This year it's been mildly effective against the awful defenses we've played but I think we've scored 10, 14, and 20 points against CAR, CIN, and SEA. About 14.6 per game. Unfortunately run, run, pass against good defenses just get's eaten alive. Peterson can't save him like he usually does, the short bubble screens to patterson have been scouted out already. The "easy" stuff Musgrave relies on just doesn't work. It's no surprise to me that when he opens it up a little, get's slightly less predictable, and takes more chances that suddenly the team "executes" better. The problem is, that's usually AFTER we've lost momentum or dug our own grave.

The coaching staff have become scapegoats for a frustrated fan base that doesn't want to face the obvious: the roster simply isn't good enough. Maybe the coaching staff isn't either but as Demi said above, I'm not sure any coaching staff could win consistently with the talent on this current Vikings team.

And for me I think the talent has become a scapegoat for some people to ignore the coaching staff so that pretty much goes both ways. Most of us that have thought about it or put effort into analyzing this team have realized quite some time ago that both the talent and coaching are sub par to win a championship. Frazier and company's style, to keep it close and grind out games just simply isn't that effective of a strategy regardless if you're more or less talented than your opponent. Not just this year, but in 2011 as well, we lost a number of close games in the exact same fashion, 5 of which we lead at half time.

As we've seen, that type of strategy and play calling is prone to losing the game late. The reason the no talent excuse loses weight with me is that, some how, we've put up leads and some of them are pretty big which means the offense is scoring and the defense is holding, yet some how that execution stops and routinely fails late in games.

When you really look at it, 2012 wasn't much different either, we won 5 out of 6 games that were decided by a TD or less and if you look at our 4-10-1 record, if we win 5 of those close games this year, we're a freaking 9-5-1 team! On the flip side, if you take 2012 and we lose all those close "grind it out" games we're 5-11!!!!!!!

All 3 years have been remarkably similar, the talent isn't much different (I'd even argue it's better than it was in 2012) and players come and go. The only constant when it comes to on the field is Frazier and company's strategy and play calling. Any year could be a 10-6 playoff run, or a 4-12 dumpster dive under this guy. And I'm just not comfortable knowing the only difference between the two is mostly dumb luck. Can we get the stop at the last second or not when our players are routinely put into poor positions? 2 out of 3 years say NOPE so far.

That's correct but Spielman wasn't just twiddling his thumbs in 2011. Childress was gone and Spielman was completely in charge of the draft (which supposedly happened a few years earlier but who knows?). He wasn't GM yet but he had a powerful voice in personnel decisions so we can't just ignore that season. You're correct that Spielman has been GM for two seasons but the rebuilding process began a year earlier, with Spielman playing one of the two key roles.

Sort of true, but not really. What little cap space we did have from the Childress fiasco, Frazier was allowed by Wilf to spend it on Mcnabb and if I remember right, we also had to send them a late round pick or two. I'm not saying Spielman didn't make like 90% of the decisions but their was still that 10% or so the coach was still allowed to pull his weight on.