Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

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mondry
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by mondry »

Demi wrote:
Omggg. You have GOT to be kidding!

Webb had a better QB rating in his game at Lambeau than Ponder did 5 weeks earlier!
Peterson averaged almost 2 yards more per carry last year than Toby has in his career!
3 of the last 6 games Peterson ran for more yards than Ponder passed for!
5 of the last 6 games Peterson had more rushing yards than Toby's career best. Including 3 games he almost doubled it.
There's a reason Adrian was MVP. And it wasn't because Toby Gerhart and Ponder > AD and Webb.

Madness!
No sir!

Who cares about QBR? Surely you don't think that stat actual matters do you? The Pack completely shut Webb down, he went 11 for 30, that's a 36% completion rate, you can't win with that even WITH AD, the league MVP. Peterson only ran for 99 yards with Webb at QB, but in both games with Ponder against the same team he went for 200+. It makes a difference when the opposing team actually can't play 10 guys in the box because they aren't afraid of your athletic bo jackson QB making a throw.(LOL) Peterson's not the MVP without Ponder and the Vikings aren't a 10-6 playoff team with Webb under center.
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by hibbingviking »

mondry wrote: No sir!

Who cares about QBR? Surely you don't think that stat actual matters do you? The Pack completely shut Webb down, he went 11 for 30, that's a 36% completion rate, you can't win with that even WITH AD, the league MVP. Peterson only ran for 99 yards with Webb at QB, but in both games with Ponder against the same team he went for 200+. It makes a difference when the opposing team actually can't play 10 guys in the box because they aren't afraid of your athletic bo jackson QB making a throw.(LOL) Peterson's not the MVP without Ponder and the Vikings aren't a 10-6 playoff team with Webb under center.
qb rating is more important than completion %. qb rating takes into account touchdowns and interceptions.
a game manager like alex smith may have a very good % while joe flaccos qb rating is better and he actually wins important games.
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by TeamChaplain »

Eat Crow all you Frazier Haters!!!
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by Purple bruise »

2013 NFL Draft Grades: Vikings, Rams, Steelers earn top marks
GRADE: A+
MINNESOTA VIKINGS: The Vikings pulled off an unlikely triple play by landing three elite prospects in the first round -- the result of general manager Rick Spielman's ability to cleverly manipulate the draft board........

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/0ap10000 ... top-grades
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by mansquatch »

I really find the argument about FA vs. Draft to be semantics and to be quite frank silly. Do we really care if they are not 100% build through the draft and not 100% build via Free Agency? Here is my metric: Did the team become more competitive?

I don’t care how they become more competitive, I just want to see them win. Given their current trajectory it is hard to say they are not doing that.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by PurpleJarl »

GBFavreFan wrote:You don't spend $45 million on Greg Jennings if you're "building through the draft", you don't actively pursue 35 year old Antoine Winfield if you're building through the draft. You don't spend $25-$30 million on John Carlson if you're building through the draft. You don't give up 4 picks for 1 if you're building through the draft. You can say the words all you want. You can write articles and forum posts all proclaiming that but the Vikings are not building through the draft. And I couldn't be happier. To clarify I consider "building through the draft" when all of your key players were drafted, and if you dip into free agency/trades at all, its only for depth and not a ton of money is put forth.

"Building through the draft" is such a marketing buzzword, that teams say because fans go crazy for that, like they just bought a great life insurance plan, or bought the mini-van instead of the sports car, as this wonderfully "sound decision" that will ensure their families will be disease-free and avoid the quick temptation of that hooker down the street named "free agency". All BS straight from PR 101, because the Vikings, like most winning teams get their starters from free agency, trades, AND the draft.

Ted Thompson's Packers won a Super Bowl in large part because of key free agents like Charles Woodson and Ryan Pickett as the cornerstones of that team, despite their boasts of "building through the draft". When they choked in the 2011 playoffs, Ted got a little scared and pursued more free agents, but by 2012, things got too pricey for tightwad Ted (Steven Jackson) and they're back to being a build through the draft team now, and guess what, their window that opened in 2007 is closing, and their stubborness in the free agency dept, the past few years has cost them playoff wins with their roster weaknesses so blatantly exposed, that could've been addressed with only a handful of proven commodities. And now the window that crashed open in 2007 is closing as our new WR so eloquently stated, and they're about to be supplanted by a certain team in purple.

The Patriots are always active in free agency yet always draft guys they need, and as soon as they're done with them, they cut them loose and don't hold on to drafted players just so they can claim they "built their team through the draft". They don't care where their players come from they just care about winning. Same goes for the World Champion Ravens who have the best GM in football in my opinion (though Spielman might be closing in depending how 2013 goes!) acquired a key LT through free agency. Smart teams address their team needs through all facets of player acquisition as long as they get the right guy.

Who are the best players on the Bears? Jay Cutler? Julius Peppers? I don't remember them being drafted by Chicago. I don't think their problem has been not building through the draft, its just not drafting the right players, in particular QB. Honestly would you really trust those knuckleheads to draft your QB? They clearly don't have the judgment for that and are much better off looking at other teams for their guy and to cling to some philosophy would be stupid.

People often blame the free agency mentality on why the Redskins have perpetually failed. The problem with them hasn't been signing free agents, the problem has been signing the WRONG free agents. Spending big money on a DE and CB isn't a dumb move. But signing over the hill Bruce Smith and Deion Sanders is dumb. Yet the 1994 49ers, the greatest display of free agency of all time dominated their way to the Super Bowl that year. And if not for Jon Gruden, the 2002 Raiders with free agents as their cornerstones would've won the Super Bowl. Do you think the "greatest show on turf" could've made two Super Bowls without Marshall Faulk?

The Steelers are probably the only team that truly builds throught the draft anymore. I think the last name outsider I can think of for them is Jerome Bettis. But you know who else builds through the draft? The Panthers, Jaguars, Dolphins, Lions, and at least 10 other LOSING franchises.

The overall point I'm trying to make is that acquiring your cornerstone players through the draft or free agency doesn't make you any more or less likely to win. Let me repeat, getting your players from the draft does not make you any more or less likely to win. What makes you win is having a GM who picks the RIGHT players with the knowledge and open-mindedness to realize that those guys can come from the University of Miami or the Miami Dolphins.

Just because they don't have a snappy marketing phrase for teams that effectively use draft AND free agency, doesn't mean we have to claim one or the other. We should just be happy we have a GM who realizes that Donovan McNabb is a bad idea, Greg Jennings and Harrison Smith are good ideas, and that his 2012 free agent blitz on fullbacks that seemed so silly at the time, ended up being the genius move of the season!

People say building through the draft because it is faster than saying, "building a team made up of young talented players with more upside than downside, who don't usually have big egos, and don't need to be paid as much as some veterans". If you really don't like it then I am sorry but its a term that is here to say. And yes usually its a stupid catch phrase that means nothing. In this case though, it isn't because its true. This team has committed to becoming a power house through the draft. Which, means all I said above, but it also means drafting hole fillers rather than signing them, and yes go ahead and pull out the hand full of examples that don't seem to jive with your preconceived definition of what building through the draft means but, I'll point out that; you don't pick 5 times in the first round in two years if you aren't building through the draft, you don't stockpile picks and trade away headache players (see what I did there!!) if you aren't building through the draft, you don't draft for need and rarely pick FAs to fill in if you aren't building through the draft.


Also, no one is suggesting that building through the draft is the best way, or if they are that is clearly an opinion and shouldn't even have to be labeled as such. Rather what the idea is to the people posting on this topic is that the upside of going more draft heavy is much bigger than going FA heavy. Success has nothing to do with it, its just the way they are doing it. The same way running or throwing ten yards doesn't matter. Its still ten yards. I would never say that the way to win is to FA sign 100% or to draft 100% of your players, as you pointed out rightly, that would be silly and doesn't seem to work. What building through the draft is to me, is the focus on picking up players who can be on the team for years to come and only turning to FA to fill a role that can't readily be filled in the draft or is a unique talent (a la Greg Jennings, or trying to get Winfield back for his veteran leadership). It seems to be we are agreeing in what the team needs to do to be successful. I am sorry if ESPNs use of the term is sickening you.
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by mondry »

Overall I agree, what it comes down to is simply being smart and getting the right players for your offense or defensive scheme. Signing a guy like winfield or pat williams, as long as it isn't too expensive is essentially like getting a first round pick. If you overpay for a guy like nmandi asomuogha, who doesn't fit your scheme, it's like drafting troy williamson on the old rookie salary scale. I do agree fully though that the GOOD GM's, generally make the best moves in both FA AND the draft.

I think Greg Jennings is damn near a perfect fit for our offense, but maybe drafting Deandre Hopkins would give a similar result. However, looking at it, because we signed jennings, that opens up the draft for Floyd and Rhodes, true BPA picks and I bet they don't trade up for Patterson if we don't have Jennings here to mentor him. Of course that's hard to say on the outside, but if you think about "good GM's" and the moves they make, we got rid of a non team player in Harvin, got the ultimate team player in Jennings who is a polished #1 WR, and drafted a young talented guy with possibly more potential upside than Harvin has in Patterson. And oh yeah we still got a 3rd round pick for NEXT year's draft that's pretty much gravy at this point. I might be giving Spielman too much credit and ability to look forward but if he knew he REALLY liked Patterson, the best thing to do if you planned on drafting him would be to get guy like jennings and "remove" Harvin.

Compare that to if we just "build through the draft" and decided we need to over pay for Harvin to keep him at all costs. Now we draft floyd, miss out on rhodes, and they could still trade up for Patterson but maybe they don't. If they do the WR corp looks really goofy with essentially 3 slot receivers in Harvin, Wright, and Patterson. Instead maybe they reach for Keenan Allen or someone like that.

The thing that has me so excited IS the fact that we're making the best use of both FA and the draft. I think in hindsight now with some time to think about it and see how it would play out, trading Harvin was a great move to net us those 3 extra picks, get rid of a WR that wasn't a true WR, that also had some head problems. In return, we get Greg Jennings because we don't have to pay Harvin, Rhodes because of the 1st round pick, and an extra 3rd round pick next year. Then we can go a step further in the master plan and trade up for Patterson because we already laid the foundation in place to give him the best chance at being successful.
Last edited by mondry on Tue May 07, 2013 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by hibbingviking »

no team builds thru free agency anymore except for the 2011 eagles which failed miserably. even Daniel Snyder stopped doing that.
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by King James »

Building through the draft doesn't mean 100% of your talent from the draft. Building through the draft means that you fill most of your teams needs through the draft. You still need a Greg Jennings on your team especially if you lost one vet in Percy Harvin. We would have had no veteran experience on the roster at WR. Same for Winfield even though the Vikings didn't really actively pursue him. They gave him more of an ultimatum, either lower his price or walk. In recent years, we have always been used to the Vikings addressing major needs in FA. Like QB, CB, and WR. Now we have address such position during the draft and all 3 players hopefully will be Vikings for a long time. The Greg Jennings move is smart because you want a veteran to teach the rookies. That being said I think Patterson will be the future WR of this team, no Jennings. By the time Jennings contract expires, he will be out of his prime and guys like Patterson, our draft pick, will be able to teach future WRs we draft.

The Winfield situation was different. He wasn't suppose to be a FA and when one of your best guys hits the market, why would you want to resign him. I can see if Winfield was just some random old CB who never played for us before but has a good stat sheet. We know what Winfield can do for this team, thats why the Vikings still wanted him back.
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by Funkytown »

JEC334 wrote:Building through the draft doesn't mean 100% of your talent from the draft. Building through the draft means that you fill most of your teams needs through the draft.
Exactly. And building through the draft is the best way. With that being said, it's still necessary to sprinkle in a few free agent signings here and there to better your team. It's nice to have a good balance of young talent and veteran players. If a team continues to build through the draft--they'll always have just that. I love what the Vikings are doing with the draft--and in free agency. No complaints here. I have no complaints with labels and such either. It is what it is.
Last edited by Funkytown on Tue May 07, 2013 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by RandallioCobb18 »

GBFavreFan wrote:You don't spend $45 million on Greg Jennings if you're "building through the draft", you don't actively pursue 35 year old Antoine Winfield if you're building through the draft. You don't spend $25-$30 million on John Carlson if you're building through the draft. You don't give up 4 picks for 1 if you're building through the draft. You can say the words all you want. You can write articles and forum posts all proclaiming that but the Vikings are not building through the draft. And I couldn't be happier. To clarify I consider "building through the draft" when all of your key players were drafted, and if you dip into free agency/trades at all, its only for depth and not a ton of money is put forth.

"Building through the draft" is such a marketing buzzword, that teams say because fans go crazy for that, like they just bought a great life insurance plan, or bought the mini-van instead of the sports car, as this wonderfully "sound decision" that will ensure their families will be disease-free and avoid the quick temptation of that hooker down the street named "free agency". All BS straight from PR 101, because the Vikings, like most winning teams get their starters from free agency, trades, AND the draft.

Ted Thompson's Packers won a Super Bowl in large part because of key free agents like Charles Woodson and Ryan Pickett as the cornerstones of that team, despite their boasts of "building through the draft". When they choked in the 2011 playoffs, Ted got a little scared and pursued more free agents, but by 2012, things got too pricey for tightwad Ted (Steven Jackson) and they're back to being a build through the draft team now, and guess what, their window that opened in 2007 is closing, and their stubborness in the free agency dept, the past few years has cost them playoff wins with their roster weaknesses so blatantly exposed, that could've been addressed with only a handful of proven commodities. And now the window that crashed open in 2007 is closing as our new WR so eloquently stated, and they're about to be supplanted by a certain team in purple.

The Patriots are always active in free agency yet always draft guys they need, and as soon as they're done with them, they cut them loose and don't hold on to drafted players just so they can claim they "built their team through the draft". They don't care where their players come from they just care about winning. Same goes for the World Champion Ravens who have the best GM in football in my opinion (though Spielman might be closing in depending how 2013 goes!) acquired a key LT through free agency. Smart teams address their team needs through all facets of player acquisition as long as they get the right guy.

Who are the best players on the Bears? Jay Cutler? Julius Peppers? I don't remember them being drafted by Chicago. I don't think their problem has been not building through the draft, its just not drafting the right players, in particular QB. Honestly would you really trust those knuckleheads to draft your QB? They clearly don't have the judgment for that and are much better off looking at other teams for their guy and to cling to some philosophy would be stupid.

People often blame the free agency mentality on why the Redskins have perpetually failed. The problem with them hasn't been signing free agents, the problem has been signing the WRONG free agents. Spending big money on a DE and CB isn't a dumb move. But signing over the hill Bruce Smith and Deion Sanders is dumb. Yet the 1994 49ers, the greatest display of free agency of all time dominated their way to the Super Bowl that year. And if not for Jon Gruden, the 2002 Raiders with free agents as their cornerstones would've won the Super Bowl. Do you think the "greatest show on turf" could've made two Super Bowls without Marshall Faulk?

The Steelers are probably the only team that truly builds throught the draft anymore. I think the last name outsider I can think of for them is Jerome Bettis. But you know who else builds through the draft? The Panthers, Jaguars, Dolphins, Lions, and at least 10 other LOSING franchises.

The overall point I'm trying to make is that acquiring your cornerstone players through the draft or free agency doesn't make you any more or less likely to win. Let me repeat, getting your players from the draft does not make you any more or less likely to win. What makes you win is having a GM who picks the RIGHT players with the knowledge and open-mindedness to realize that those guys can come from the University of Miami or the Miami Dolphins.

Just because they don't have a snappy marketing phrase for teams that effectively use draft AND free agency, doesn't mean we have to claim one or the other. We should just be happy we have a GM who realizes that Donovan McNabb is a bad idea, Greg Jennings and Harrison Smith are good ideas, and that his 2012 free agent blitz on fullbacks that seemed so silly at the time, ended up being the genius move of the season!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

So really, our window is closing? Lol, please. Our QB was not even producing at half the level he is now, when we won the SB. Our defense dropped off sharply in 2011, and now seems to be on its way back up.

I assure you TT wasnt 'scared' of anything. You really think a GM is going to be "scared" after 15-1 season that ended with a lost to the eventual SB champs? Please, most of the free agents he signed didnt even make the roster, I admit, that he went a little harder on the free agents in response to the awful D from 2011, but to say he was scared is simply foolish.

Steven Jackson? LOL, dude, the guy would have been an alright pick up but hes old as dirt, what if he got injured? Not to mention he only had a 3.9 Yards per carry if i recall correctly. Id MUCH rather draft not one, but TWO of the top 5 rated RBs in the draft on most people draft board, then give up too much money for Steven Jackson, if he was a vet minimum guy fine, but otherwise? Ill go with the youth, what if one of the rook RBs the Packers draft becomes a HOFer or even a Pro Bowler? Then that Jackson thing seems like a pretty good idea.

Cost us playoff wins? Since we won the SB we have gone 1-2 in the Playoffs, not good, but if you think a SB Ring and 2 playoff losses to the eventual NFC champ both times is is bad, then Im very interested to hear what your thoughts on the Falcons are, surely you dont think that they have bad managment?

The Packers entire draft strategy is based on keeping the window open, if you would have claimed that the Packers lack the needed mindset to "Put them over the top so to speak." maybe your claim would have had some legitimacy, based on your entire post, I can surmise that you dont really pay attention to how the cap works, the Bears have plenty of star players that they got from free agency, and what has it gotten them? They are going through a regime change, and their cap is a mess, they can delude themselves all they want, they are going to be going through a cut and gut phase in their roster these next few years, not to mention that overrated QB that every body likes to pretend is a top QB, is probably going to be gone in a year unless he absolutely tears it up this year.

What you also need to understand is that free agency in 1990's was different, teams were just figuring out how the cap worked and really didnt have free agency figured out yet, im not saying free agency is bad, because that is obviously not the case, but the Charles Woodsons of the world simply are not common.

You CAN win with a little bit of free agency here and there, but you will NOT win if free agency is your primary means of building a team, I think thats all the 'experts' mean when they preach their draft and develop strategy.

You may be right about the Vikes taking over the North, but ill take my chances with the guys that won 6 out of the last 7 matchups. :thumbsup:
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by Funkytown »

mondry wrote:Considering we would have 0% chance to win any of the last 4 games that got us to the playoffs like the 0% chance Webb gave us IN the playoffs, I think Spielmans right on the money. Start Gerhart all 4 games we still have a chance, throw Webb in, 0-4 finish.
Right on the money? I wouldn't go that far. I love Ponder, but suggesting he was as equally as important to our successes last year as Peterson was--uuuuh, that's a stretch. The road to the playoffs is not just the last four games. It's the entire season. Peterson was the main man a lot of the time, and he was barely non-existent at any point. As much as I love Ponder, he was at times. A few of our wins could have happened with our without Ponder (even as bad as Webb is)--I don't feel comfortable saying the same about being without Peterson.

Also, AP is MVP. That ends the debate!. :wink:
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by Mothman »

As JEC334 indicated, "building through the draft" doesn't mean building exclusively through the draft. There's no need to take the phrase so literally. When a team says they want to build through the draft it simply means they want the draft to be their primary team-building tool. It indicates a point of emphasis and based on what the Vikes have done in the past few years, it certainly looks like they're using the draft as the primary means of re-shaping their roster and setting a foundation for the future.
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by hibbingviking »

Mothman wrote:As JEC334 indicated, "building through the draft" doesn't mean building exclusively through the draft. There's no need to take the phrase so literally. When a team says they want to build through the draft it simply means they want the draft to be their primary team-building tool. It indicates a point of emphasis and based on what the Vikes have done in the past few years, it certainly looks like they're using the draft as the primary means of re-shaping their roster and setting a foundation for the future.
:point: :thumbsup:
the Vikings have one of the youngest teams in the draft if not the youngest. the old timers are jared allen, kevin Williams and chad greenway, and even they aren't over the hill. veterans like Dwight freeney and Charles woodson are out of jobs.
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Re: Vikings build through draft under Rick Spielman, Frazier

Post by King James »

I dont think any team ever gets 100% from the draft. Great drafting teams like the Steelers, as you mention attack the FA as well. The difference is they don't go after the top free agents on the board. They go after young unproven players that hopefully they can groom into better players. And they usually do succeed because the Steelers has a great coaching staff.
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