Vikings Message Board.Com

Mothman wrote:DB: Winfield's age makes this a priority, although the "old man" keeps chugging along and he had an excellent season. Robinson was a nice addition and Harrison Smith made a genuine impact at safety. I like the addition of Jefferson too. He's not great but he can play and he's young enough to still have upside. If Cook can stay on the field, the CBs don't look bad at all for next year but another injection of talent at the position is still necessary. The depth has to improve and Winfield won't play forever.

This is the only one where we're not in agreement. I think the CBs still look pretty bad for next year, barring unforeseen improvement from Cook and Robinson. Winfield can't keep up this level of play and the Vikings ideally already wanted to play him in the slot and limit his snaps this season. The same has to be true for next season. Cook hasn't developed as much as I had hoped (perhaps I had too high of expectations), part of the problem being he's not being used as much to jam (which is his strength) and playing off so much so often that he's simply not as effective as I believe he could be. That aside, he's just been "a guy" to me this season. Perhaps I should cut him some slack being out for so long with the injury (another obvious concern), but I'm starting to question his ceiling and if he truly has #1 CB talent. Provided he can stay healthy/out of trouble next season, it will be a pretty significant season for him, playing in a contract year.

I like A.J. Jeffereson, just not in a starting role. At all. From what I've seen, he's a capable backup (probably more capable than we've had in the last few years) but he should not be starting for us next season. His ball skills are a liability and his tackling ability is mediocre at best. Here are a few of his recent stats:

vs. Rams: Allowed six catches for 80 yards in nine targets with an interference call.

vs. GB (week 17): Allowed six completions for 67 yards and a touchdown in seven targets, taking a 16-yard pass interference penalty. He also was called for interference on fourth-and-1 against WR Jarrett Boykin, who caught Rodgers' back-shoulder throw anyway.

vs. Bears (Nov. 27): Gave up four completions for 46 yards to Marshall, who stiff-armed Jefferson to finish another play, and took a personal foul for fighting WR Eric Weems.

I mentioned this in another thread, but Josh Robinson has flashed some ability, so I suppose I'm hoping for him to take over the other spot outside Cook. Really, it's because I know what we have in Jefferson, Sherels (yuck) and lack of any other quality options. My hope here is that he can improve and be a legit starter but that's yet to be seen. As such, I still think we need to spend either top (rounds 1-3) selection on a CB and/or bring in a proven guy (Brent Grimes, Sean Smith, DRC). In our division with Rodgers/his stupid stable of receivers, Marshall/Cutler, and Stafford/Calvin our CBs are overmatched even at full health.

So when you say "they don't look bad at all" I have to respectfully disagree given the WRs/QBs they play against the most. Thankfully you qualified that by adding that a talent injection is necessary. Because it most certainly is.

winfield is gone, so forget about him. we have cook and robinson who should start next year, and our safeties aren't that bad. we need quality receivers or we'll be in the same situation.

mosscarter wrote:winfield is gone, so forget about him.

What?

PurpleMustReign wrote:
What?

Don't worry. He's under contract for another year ($3 million).

I disagree about cook dead poet. I don't really know what you're basing his struggles off of, outside of the first couple games of the season, I think he has been a solid #1 cb.

Jim,

I agree with most of what you said, but there is one strong area of disagreement. Notwithstanding that Ponder played better down the stretch, I feel strongly that job one is to find a starting QB as soon as possible. Ponder just isn't starting QB caliber. He doesn't have that upside -- unless we build a team like the Bears or Ravens teams that didn't need a QB to do anything other than "game manage." That shouldn't be the way you build a team (and even the 85 Bears had a QB who was better than that).

I won't argue that our linebackers are all great, or that we couldn't use cornerback depth or better guard play. And clearly, WR is a huge, huge need. But in my view, without a different QB, we're not contending for the Super Bowl. And that should be our foremost goal.

If there is one lesson from this season it should be that we should never forget the importance of the QB position. In the end, that was what kept us from even competing in the wild card playoff game. And had Ponder been healthy, it would have almost certainly kept us from competing in one of the playoff games or another (perhaps even the Packer game).

DanAS wrote:If there is one lesson from this season it should be that we should never forget the importance of the QB position. In the end, that was what kept us from even competing in the wild card playoff game. And had Ponder been healthy, it would have almost certainly kept us from competing in one of the playoff games or another (perhaps even the Packer game).

Point well taken. They will pick up a solid backup. Ponder will have 100% support as 2013 starter from day 1, all word out of Winter Park is how great he got in Games 13-16, especially 16. To your bigger point on QB position importance, I may have read this on the board and definitely heard it on NFL radio after the game. Packers show that an NFL team with a great passing game & QB with no running game (44 straight starts with no 100 yard runner) can win a Super Bowl; whereas a team like the Vikings with arguably a top 5 in history NFL RB goes nowhere without a strong QB and passing game. It IS a QB driven league.

CalVike wrote:Point well taken. They will pick up a solid backup. Ponder will have 100% support as 2013 starter from day 1, all word out of Winter Park is how great he got in Games 13-16, especially 16. To your bigger point on QB position importance, I may have read this on the board and definitely heard it on NFL radio after the game. Packers show that an NFL team with a great passing game & QB with no running game (44 straight starts with no 100 yard runner) can win a Super Bowl; whereas a team like the Vikings with arguably a top 5 in history NFL RB goes nowhere without a strong QB and passing game. It IS a QB driven league.

I'm not disagreeing at all. I just want to add my two cents, if it's even worth that much.

It might be a QB driven league but it's imperative to insulate the QB with good skill players around him. I just don't see any good QBs without quality receivers. Aaron Rodgers is great but his receivers are darn good as well, and the Pack now has some talent at RB. They have a more balanced offense than the Vikings do. In fact, I think the Vikings would have been dead meat late in the season without AD.

Even if the Vikings somehow acquire an outstanding seasoned QB during the offseason, I think they'll still go ahead and upgrade the WR corps and they'd be right to do so. The lack of WR talent, aside from Harvin and possibly Wright, is hurting the offense.

As for Ponder, everything you're saying about him starting in 2013 is probably going to happen. And I agree that the Vikings will pick up a solid backup QB. However, as I've posted elsewhere, I believe Ponder will have a shorter leash next season and will have to show significant improvement as the season progresses or he'll get pulled.

Whatever the case, this last playoff game proved that the Vikings need more than an athlete like Joe Webb as a backup QB.

I don't see the staff grabbing a possible starting QB such as Smith after Ponders performances at the end of the season. He seemed to me to be getting better and it is obvious the staff did too. I think if we upgrade the receiving corps next year we will see a large improvement out of Ponder. Watching Webb against Green Bay raised my appreciation for how well Ponder improved the last four games. Give him some decent targets and we'll see a lot more out of him. So with that in mind I think the biggest needs are:

1. WR- enough points have been made about this. I would really like the team to put out the money for a good one. Not one to just get us by.

2. DT- Why? It seems like the defensive staff is stuck on cover 2. Cover 2 demands that the defensive line puts pressure on the QB. I saw enough plays this year get extended where we had decent coverage, but the QB had too much time to throw. Our DE are pretty good, but we need someone in the middle that can really put pressure on the QB. Rogers was sacked a coupld of times, but IMHO he still had too much time overall to find receivers. In our division we have got to get a better pass defense. If we stick with Tampa 2 then our biggest hope is to find studs to really put pressure on the QB. We can cover guys well, but if the QB has too much time, no matter whose covering they will pick us apart.

3. OLB- We do need some guys who are better at coverage, thats for sure.

4. Guard- I watched too many times when Ponder went back to pass only to find guys right in his face leaving him the inability to step into the pocket. It got better towards the end, but I would like to see a better pass blocking guard. Preferrable someone that can run block also.

5. CB- I am not sure about this one. Cook was out so long it is hard to really give a strong opinion in him other than to be concerned about his durability. Hopefully Robinson is the guy to replace Winfield. He young yet so it's hard to make a good judgement on him, but we abolutely need one upgrade here, but I maintain that a strong DT that can pressure the QB is more important right now.

saint33 wrote:I disagree about cook dead poet. I don't really know what you're basing his struggles off of, outside of the first couple games of the season, I think he has been a solid #1 cb.

I'm not bashing him. I'm just disappointed. I'd have to go back and look at the stats, but he was hardly a "shutdown corner" which was my hope. Not a Revis, but better than what he's shown. He gets beat too often (he doesn't have great long speed) for my tastes and plays off too often which results in easy completions (may not be entirely his fault if he's asked to do that).

Let me ask you, what have you seen that has impressed you or led you to believe he's a solid #1? Other than comparing him to the rest of our guys not named Winfield

I mostly agree, so here are my thoughts:

CB: I think they’ll keep most of what they have. Cook/Jefferson/Robinson are all decent players that I think will continue to improve. I do see them adding some depth here given the experience of what happened in week 17 when Winfield got hurt, plus the fact they have to play the 3 passing offenses in the division 2x a season. I do not see this as being a 1st or 2nd round draft pick area of need unless BPA shows up, but I see them adding bodies. Our coaching staff knows that guys in the secondary get hurt and you cannot have enough sound CBs on the team. Interesting to see what happens with Sanford’s contract.

WR: I definitely agree this group needs to be better, but I’m starting to waver on what I think will happen. I think Simpson is most likely to get another contract assuming he’ll sign it. He showed flashes in the last half of the season and has both speed and height. Wright is showing solid development as well. Harvin is a monster. That, IMO, equals having 3 decent WR, assuming JS and JW continue to get better. Add in KR and now you’ve got 4 guys. So for me it is a question of numbers. I see them paying Harvin big $$$. That makes another FA signing very unlikely unless they axe Carslon. (Could happen) The other route is the draft, but WR picks tend to take a season or two to develop. However, I see a 3rd scenario unfolding:
I wonder if the template isn’t in place for them to have “improved” from within via the 2012 draft/ free agency. Consider they added 4 players to the receiving corps in 2012: Wright, Childs, Simpson, Carlson. Now I get that 2 of those guys are considered busts by their performance and one is an injury question mark. Just bare with me. Spielman has indicated that he thinks JC will be a contributor which seems to signal he’ll be on the roster in 2013. I think Simpson is coming back. That means you’re set at TE and will need more 2 TE sets to get them touches. In that alignment you will have only 2 WR on the field. Presumably Harvin will be one all the time. That means you’ve got JS and JW fighting for other spot or both on the field when you run 3 WR. Rarely do we see 4. The other X factor is Greg Childs who has the physical attributes the others are lacking. I think if the Vikes keep JC and we do not see Childs waived or released we may be set up to see the Vikings at best use a 2nd round pick on WR. More likely I can see them not doing anything and the board being filled with “very disappointed” posts. IMO, if that happens it tells us that the FO thinks JC has turned the corner and Childs will be back on the field. I think the key thing to watch for here are what happens with Simpson and JC. If they release JC I bet they go big in FA. If not, I would not expect as much movement here as anticipated. Just my $0.02 on the situation.

LB: This is the position where I think they can get the most bang for the buck. JB and EH are at best average. More importantly, JB plays Mike which is a critical position in our scheme for playmaking. Of all the positions on the roster this is the one where adding talent could give us the biggest boost. I think we’ll see an early pick spent here or maybe a FA signing.

DL: We have 3 solid DE. DT is not what it once was. The team still doesn’t have a true beast of an NT which is also very important to our scheme. Old #94 has not been replaced. KWill is also aging. DL is very deep in this draft so I think we’ll see early picks spent here. Not sure if they’ll pick up KWill’s heir apparent or a solid option at NT, but why not make the strength of our D even stronger?

OL: I agree on the C and two tackles. I’ll even go so far as to say not resigning Loadholt would be a mistake. Where we need talent is at OG. Too often this year opposing DC made hay out of our guards. This needs to improve. Not sure how they’ll approach this. Could be BPA, could be FA. I suspect mid round picks at best.

dead_poet wrote: Let me ask you, what have you seen that has impressed you or led you to believe he's a solid #1? Other than comparing him to the rest of our guys not named Winfield

Cook has the ability to play 1 on 1 with a team's best WR. Not saying he does this consistently, but he has the body and talent to do it. The team also plays him in this way.

I would caution against basing analysis of the CB based mostly on the freshest memories, which are the past 2 games against GB. GB fields 4 above average pass catchers with the league's best QB on every down. That is a very different match up scenario than say the Lions or Bears. Our guys certainly need to get better when we play the Packers, but they also have to play everyone else.

Draft honey badger guy to replace Winfield in 2 years!

DanAS wrote:I agree with most of what you said, but there is one strong area of disagreement. Notwithstanding that Ponder played better down the stretch, I feel strongly that job one is to find a starting QB as soon as possible. Ponder just isn't starting QB caliber. He doesn't have that upside -- unless we build a team like the Bears or Ravens teams that didn't need a QB to do anything other than "game manage." That shouldn't be the way you build a team (and even the 85 Bears had a QB who was better than that).

I won't argue that our linebackers are all great, or that we couldn't use cornerback depth or better guard play. And clearly, WR is a huge, huge need. But in my view, without a different QB, we're not contending for the Super Bowl. And that should be our foremost goal.

If there is one lesson from this season it should be that we should never forget the importance of the QB position. In the end, that was what kept us from even competing in the wild card playoff game. And had Ponder been healthy, it would have almost certainly kept us from competing in one of the playoff games or another (perhaps even the Packer game).

You may be right but I think it's a fait accompli that Ponder will be the starter next season, which is why I wrote what I did above. They need to put Plan B in place but I'm convinced the Vikes are still viewing Ponder as Plan A.

simpson and winfield will be gone. we need a big physical receiver to go with harvin and wright. that should be the number 1 priority.