Vikings Message Board.Com

smoothoperator wrote:because of his name? my goodness, this is getting out of hand. ponder is doing fine and well compared to other sophomore qb's. he is better than any other option we have and once the offense can figure out how to balance the pass and run game, i think he will get back on the right track.

I don't think people are complaining that we're playing Ponder instead of the other QBs on the roster. The point is simply that he is not the team's ultimate solution at QB if we're going to contend for the Title. It's not like Webb falls into that category either.

As for the "name" comment, I stand behind it. He has a better name than he has an arm.

(Take a joke, man.)

lol, i do think its a good name, just sounded like a serious comment. no worries

DanAS wrote:I don't think people are complaining that we're playing Ponder instead of the other QBs on the roster. The point is simply that he is not the team's ultimate solution at QB if we're going to contend for the Title. It's not like Webb falls into that category either.

It's too soon to tell. That may true of the healthy baby boy that's born in your neighborhood hospital as well but it still applies here..

Nobody can say with certainty that Ponder won't turn things around. Defenses have adjusted to him and now he needs to adjust to them. I'd put the odds of that happening at around 10% based on what I've seen, but I can't say for sure Ponder is incapable of it.

It's a very frustrating situation. While it appears Ponder is very skittish in the pocket, it is true he's not getting a lot of time to throw, either. I mean, the freakin' "Haven't gotten a sack from anyone on defense in over a month" Bucs come into the Dome and sack Ponder repeatedly. If the offensive line can't keep Ponder clean at home against that defense I guess I can see why Ponder is so skittish. He may not trust the line.

I'll also agree with someone else (I think it was Kapp) who said the Vikings might as well just admit to what they are right now and that's a running team. I have been harping on Musgrave and Ponder for the lack of a mid-range and effective deep attack for a while, but it's starting to appear that just might not be in the cards. While I don't think the Vikings will win many games just pounding it with AD, it does seem to be what they are capable of doing right now. The line may not be able to pass block for crap, but they seem to be opening holes in the running game even against stacked fronts. Ponder may not be able to drop back, calmly make his reads and confidently deliver, but he can hand it off while he works on other aspects of his game in practice. AD may not be great at recognizing and picking up the blitz, but he sure as heck can pound it and punish defenses. While I'd rather watch paint dry in a storm than more Chilly-ball, as much as a I hate to say it, that's really all this group of offensive players appears to be capable of doing at a pro-level of competence right now.

Mothman wrote: It's too soon to tell. That may true of the healthy baby boy that's born in your neighborhood hospital as well but it still applies here..

I agree that we can't be certain, though I'm obviously not an optimist on this one. The issue is a moot one for now. It might not be come the off-season.

Signing Favre set us back a couple of years because we declined in 2010, and 2011 in his absence. Drafting Ponder hasn't set us back, and could be argued that it has made us better.

I don't get a lot of Vikings fans

we won three games last year and we will probably come close to three times that much by the end of the season.

I wasn't happy about the way the team played in the last game either, but keep some perspective people

jackal wrote:I don't get a lot of Vikings fans

we won three games last year and we will probably come close to three times that much by the end of the season.

I wasn't happy about the way the team played in the last game either, but keep some perspective people

But we hve to go undefeated. If we lose a game, we may as well not watch anymore.

Juice wrote:Comp/Att || Cmp% || Yards || TD || INT || Rate
263/ 451 || 58.3% || 2916 || 22 || 14 || 80.9 Matt Ryan http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... elog/2009/
294/ 557 || 52.8% || 3762 || 24 || 17 || 75.9 Eli Manning http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... elog/2005/
320/ 526 || 60.8% || 3284 || 17 || 16 || 76.9 Drew Brees [2nd- 1st full] http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... elog/2002/
205/ 356 || 57.6% || 2108 || 11 || 15 || 67.5 Drew Brees [3rd- 2nd full] http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... elog/2003/
373/ 601 || 62.1% || 3764 || 28 || 14 || 85.7 Tom Brady [3rd- 2nd full] http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... elog/2002/
297/ 467 || 63.6% || 3497 || 20 || 14 || 88.1 Jay Cutler http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... elog/2007/

171/ 262 || 65.3% || 1743 || 10 || 7 || 85.8 Christian Ponder (Current)
342/ 546 || 65.3% || 3486 || 20 || 14 || 85.8 Christian Ponder (Estimated +/-)

While looking at the 2nd year of the fallowing QB's, I noticed that most of them started off very similar to the way Ponder has this year. Started off good and took a step back. Just about all of those step backs were around the mid-season mark like Ponder's. All QB's showed ups and downs throughout the season. I realize statistics don't paint the whole picture nor am I saying he will pan out but giving up on him right now is pretty stupid IMO.

Sorry to quote the whole thing. I thought that the chances were that I would destroy the formatting by cutting stuff.

This reminds me of football in the 80's. They would always say how Danny White of the Cowboys had better career stats than Roger Staubach. [There was some other Steelers QB like that, who had better stats than Bradshaw, but I don't even recall his name now - tells you how important he became.] Does anyone doubt which guy was the better QB? Stats often don't tell the story.

I've repeated this amongst Vikings fans for almost 20 years now. Warren Moon had great statistics. But he had no idea how to win football games. We were continually upset by bad teams. Brad Johnson didn't have half the skills, but he knew how to put together a drive at the end of a game to ice the victory. And he won a superbowl.

Granted, Ponder showed us something like we want to see, in the Jags and Colts games. That needs to happen more in critical drives in the first half.

John_Viveiros wrote: Sorry to quote the whole thing. I thought that the chances were that I would destroy the formatting by cutting stuff.

This reminds me of football in the 80's. They would always say how Danny White of the Cowboys had better career stats than Roger Staubach. [There was some other Steelers QB like that, who had better stats than Bradshaw, but I don't even recall his name now - tells you how important he became.] Does anyone doubt which guy was the better QB? Stats often don't tell the story.

I've repeated this amongst Vikings fans for almost 20 years now. Warren Moon had great statistics. But he had no idea how to win football games. We were continually upset by bad teams. Brad Johnson didn't have half the skills, but he knew how to put together a drive at the end of a game to ice the victory. And he won a superbowl.

Granted, Ponder showed us something like we want to see, in the Jags and Colts games. That needs to happen more in critical drives in the first half.

Great post finally someone who gets the fact that we just dont' know what we have in Ponder is he the guy who sucked in Washington and against the Bucs or is he the guy who came back with 30 something seconds to lead a scoring drive to send a game into OT and then lead them on a scoring drive to win it. I am honestly far more concerned with Frasier and Musgrave than I am CP , but that is for another post . SKOL Vikes !

Lash Man wrote:Great post finally someone who gets the fact that we just dont' know what we have in Ponder is he the guy who sucked in Washington and against the Bucs or is he the guy who came back with 30 something seconds to lead a scoring drive to send a game into OT and then lead them on a scoring drive to win it.

It's ironic that you mentioned the Washington game because he was in the process of bringing them back in that one too. They had closed the deficit from double digits to 5 points when the defense gave up that long TD run to RGIII that basically put the game away. If the defense had forced a three and out on that play who knows what would have happened?

jackal wrote:Aikman had a horrible first year I think 1-15

Manning had about the same

many HOF have struggled in their first few years

I've never been a fan of this argument. Those guys are the exception to the rule.

Many QBs have started out that badly or worse. I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet the vast majority of them didn't end up becoming anything more than a crappy quarterback. The rough start for Ponder is definitely not a good sign no matter how you look at it.

Just because Bill Gates dropped out of college and hit it big doesn't mean that if I drop out of college I'll become rich (though that would be nice). Just an example. Probably a crappy one.

As I've said a bajillion times, though, I'd love more than anything to be wrong.

admvp wrote: I've never been a fan of this argument. Those guys are the exception to the rule.

Many QBs have started out that badly or worse. I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet the vast majority of them didn't end up becoming anything more than a crappy quarterback. The rough start for Ponder is definitely not a good sign no matter how you look at it.

Just because Bill Gates dropped out of college and hit it big doesn't mean that if I drop out of college I'll become rich (though that would be nice). Just an example. Probably a crappy one.

As I've said a bajillion times, though, I'd love more than anything to be wrong.

The reason that this example is brought up is there are many who are convinced Ponder is NOT "the guy" based on some poor play. Not a whole season, mind you, but the latest sample of a less than stellar performance. The difference between the two camps (at least as I see it) is not "Ponder will be the greatest QB to ever play the game" vs. "Ponder will be lucky to be holding a jock strap in 3 years, let alone a QB clipboard". The difference is: "I am certain he sucks" vs. "He might suck, but he might turn out good"

So your points are quite correct. Just because a QB starts out badly, doesn't mean he will become a pro-bowler. (or even good enough to "cut it" in the NFL). Conversely, since we all acknowledge that there are examples of poor starts in the NFL where QBs become Pro-Bowl material, isn't it a bit presumptuous to be this certain of failure barely into the QBs second season (Especially when the stats for the year bear out his overall performance is improving - just not his most recent 3 games)? Ponder may still utlimately turn out to be one of the worst QBs the Vikings ever had, I'll freely acknowledge that. I'm saying if we "dumped him now" there is alos a chance he continues to improve and lead a different team to a Super Bowl. I'd like to see his "whole body of work" for the season before I jump to conclusions.

John_Viveiros wrote:I've repeated this amongst Vikings fans for almost 20 years now. Warren Moon had great statistics. But he had no idea how to win football games. We were continually upset by bad teams. Brad Johnson didn't have half the skills, but he knew how to put together a drive at the end of a game to ice the victory. And he won a superbowl.

If Moon would have had Tampa Bay's defense he'd have won a Super Bowl too. We could argue this all day, but if you were to ask me if I wanted Moon (in his prime) vs. Johnson (in his prime) I would pick Moon without hesitation. I'd wager that the majority of us who saw them both play would come to the same conclusion.

Granted, Ponder showed us something like we want to see, in the Jags and Colts games. That needs to happen more in critical drives in the first half.

I think I am encouraged by the fact that Ponder seems to "step up" when the game is on the line. That is a characteristic that some QBs just seem to have. Where I have concerns about whether he will pan out is the play he shows which contributes to why we are behind in the first place.

To be clear: I'm not sold on Ponder. But, neither am I convinced he will definitely fail. YMMV

Just Me wrote:I think I am encouraged by the fact that Ponder seems to "step up" when the game is on the line. That is a characteristic that some QBs just seem to have. Where I have concerns about whether he will pan out is the play he shows which contributes to why we are behind in the first place.

Same here. I understand that all QBs turn the ball over and Ponder will too but he has to exercise the good judgment he shows at times much more consistently. I understand desperate throws in desperate situations but he can't keep forcing throws in non-desperate situations, like simply trying to drive for more points before the half. Poor decisions and poor throws late in the first half have easily become my biggest concern with Ponder.