Vikings Message Board.Com

S197 wrote:Newton was never a pure passer so to cherry pick a few stats to try and give Ponder a semblance of being in the same tier at this point in his career as Newton is disingenuous. I know a lot of people don't like Newton but it's hard to argue with what he's done so far on the field.

Just to be clear, I was only attempting to present what each of them did statistically as passers. I should have stated that but I thought it was self-evident. Anyway, I wasn't trying to draw any conclusions (beyond what I said about Ponder's improvement from last season to this season). I didn't cherry pick the stats to make a point or make any comparisons beyond what the numbers themselves show. Almost all I posted is raw data, nothing more, so I'm not sure how it can be seen as disingenuous.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't make an argument that Ponder was more effective or as effective in his first 16 games as Newton because there's no argument to be made. Newton was clearly superior. For that matter, I'm not interested in making an argument that Ponder is better than Dalton either. I don't think he is and I don't think it matters. I just thought it would be fun to look at the passing stats the 3 QBs posted in their first 16 games and to get a glimpse at how their stats look from season 1 to this point of season 2. Everybody can draw their own conclusions.

Mothman wrote: Just to be clear, I was only attempting to present what each of them did statistically as passers. I should have stated that but I thought it was self-evident. Anyway, I wasn't trying to draw any conclusions (beyond what I said about Ponder's improvement from last season to this season). I didn't cherry pick the stats to make a point or make any comparisons beyond what the numbers themselves show. Almost all I posted is raw data, nothing more, so I'm not sure how it can be seen as disingenuous.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't make an argument that Ponder was more effective or as effective in his first 16 games as Newton because there's no argument to be made. Newton was clearly superior. For that matter, I'm not interested in making an argument that Ponder is better than Dalton either. I don't think he is and I don't think it matters. I just thought it would be fun to look at the passing stats the 3 QBs posted in their first 16 games and to get a glimpse at how their stats look from season 1 to this point of season 2. Everybody can draw their own conclusions.

Fair enough. However, I think a lot of the comparisons were based on each of them as quarterbacks, not just passers. In such a comparison I think the extra dimension Newton brings to the game needs to be taken into account. If you want to look at them as pure passers (you never mentioned that in your post, perhaps it was implied and I misread) then yes, it is interesting to see the similarities.

S197 wrote:Those stats are nice but they don't really tell the true story of how phenomenal Newton was as a rookie. Yes, he had 21TD's, but those were only passing TD's. The guy also ran for over 700 yards and another 14 rushing TD's. Just look at the records he set:
Newton was never a pure passer so to cherry pick a few stats to try and give Ponder a semblance of being in the same tier at this point in his career as Newton is disingenuous. I know a lot of people don't like Newton but it's hard to argue with what he's done so far on the field.

All that and his team went what? 6-10? And so far this year they are 1-4. Personal records are great, but I bet he would give them up to be in the playoffs.

Raptorman wrote: All that and his team went what? 6-10? And so far this year they are 1-4. Personal records are great, but I bet he would give them up to be in the playoffs.

As I'm sure Rodgers would give up his MVP for a ring last year. Winning is always better than personal accolades but I don't see what that has to do with this particular topic. Newton arguably had the best NFL rookie season (statistically and record-wise) ever. Love him or hate him, what he did was pretty special especially when you consider the circumstances with the lockout last year.

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Andy Dalton must be a inexperienced brick head he throws to many interceptions and bad decisions.

Saw a graph on the ESPN NFL page with the top 10 QB games so far this year.

2 of them were Andrew Luck and RG III, both against the Vikes. I know we have drastically improve the DB situation, but......

one thing is for sure, newton and daulton can both get the ball down the field when needed. i think the last long td ponder threw was last year against atlanta.

Demi wrote:At least we're past comparing him to Manning, Joe Montana, etc his rookie season.

Now we're comparing him to Dalton and Newton

Wonder what next year will bring.

For the record, I think he played as good as (or better than) Manning did in Manning's Rookie season. Since some of us weren't ready to trade him 6 games into his NFL career it seemed to be a valid comparison then. So the standard is Rodgers, Brees, Brady, etc. and if he can't equal their performances then we should trade him? (Wait - He did equal Brady's performance last week )

S197 wrote:Fair enough. However, I think a lot of the comparisons were based on each of them as quarterbacks, not just passers. In such a comparison I think the extra dimension Newton brings to the game needs to be taken into account. If you want to look at them as pure passers (you never mentioned that in your post, perhaps it was implied and I misread) then yes, it is interesting to see the similarities.

... and the differences. As I said, I just posted their passing numbers. I assumed that implied the passing comparison but I should have been clear.

Anyway, as I wrote above, I don't think the comparison matters anyway. I looked up the numbers out of curiosity but each player is different and each is on a different team, in different circumstances, so other than being drafted in the same class, they have no real connection.

Purplemania wrote:Stats like these give me hope...but game tapes do not It isn't all by any means, but the lack of deep passing really leaves me unsatisfied.

Exactly. The deep ball has to be developed or Ponder will not make it. In the end dink and dunk short passes will only take you so far. The deep threat has to be feared.

dalton can throw downfield because he has aj green...he would be average or worse without him

Laserman wrote: Exactly. The deep ball has to be developed or Ponder will not make it. In the end dink and dunk short passes will only take you so far. The deep threat has to be feared.

Which is why the Vikings need to acquire a serious deep threat...

That tends to help the deep passing game.

Purplemania wrote: I fear if Ponder only develops these short passes that even when he finally acquires a deep ball wr he won't know how to throw it to them lol granted as a QB who went through high school and the collegiant scene he should, but this is the NFL where if you don't work on it you will lose it.

I'm sure they work on it in practice and it's not as if he never attempts deeper throws.

This is a general comment and not just directed at any one individual:

The Vikings favor shorter passes but they are running 15-25 yard routes and connecting on them in every game. They've thrown deeper passes than that too. I apologize for stating the obvious but it just seems like a lot of comments in this ongoing, season-long discussion/obsession about the distance Ponder's passes are traveling often ends up being phrased as if the Vikings make no attempt to throw beyond the 5-10 yard mark. However, they've been doing it all year and having some success with it.

I'm not sure why this has become such an issue with fans and reporters. I know the long pass is one of the more exciting plays in football but for whatever reason, the Vikings don't feel inclined to throw a lot of them right now. It may be due to a lack of confidence in their receivers as deep threats, it may be due to a desire to control the clock and rest their defense, it might be because they favor high percentage plays that reduce the risk of turnovers and it might even be due to a lack of confidence in Ponder's ability to throw deep. Maybe it's a combination of all of the above and maybe not. Perhaps there are other factors too. Their efforts to add deep threats and new WR talent this offseason (Simpson, Childs and Wright) have resulted in 3 strikes so far so I suspect that has a lot do with it. However, the bottom line is the offense has moved the ball well with the strategy they're using. The team is winning and the offense is in the top half of the league in scoring, despite leaving some potential points on the board by settling for FGs instead of TDs. What they're doing strategically is working and they're doing it with a roster that I suspect we can all agree is incomplete. It's natural to want the team to be an offensive powerhouse and to want to see the kind of big, splashy, downfield pass plays we saw when Culpepper was throwing to Moss but that's not what the team is built to do right now (or for some reason, it's not what they want to do right now) and what they are doing is working pretty well. Instead of fretting over what the team is missing, maybe we should be happier about what they're able to do despite missing some pieces that would make them even better.

It's just a thought...

Mothman wrote:I'm sure they work on it in practice and it's not as if he never attempts deeper throws.

This is a general comment and not just directed at any one individual:

The Vikings favor shorter passes but they are running 15-25 yard routes and connecting on them in every game. They've thrown deeper passes than that too. I apologize for stating the obvious but it just seems like a lot of comments in this ongoing, season-long discussion/obsession about the distance Ponder's passes are traveling often ends up being phrased as if the Vikings make no attempt to throw beyond the 5-10 yard mark. However, they've been doing it all year and having some success with it.

I'm not sure why this has become such an issue with fans and reporters. I know the long pass is one of the more exciting plays in football but for whatever reason, the Vikings don't feel inclined to throw a lot of them right now. It may be due to a lack of confidence in their receivers as deep threats, it may be due to a desire to control the clock and rest their defense, it might be because they favor high percentage plays that reduce the risk of turnovers and it might even be due to a lack of confidence in Ponder's ability to throw deep. Maybe it's a combination of all of the above and maybe not. Perhaps there are other factors too. Their efforts to add deep threats and new WR talent this offseason (Simpson, Childs and Wright) have resulted in 3 strikes so far so I suspect that has a lot do with it. However, the bottom line is the offense has moved the ball well with the strategy they're using. The team is winning and the offense is in the top half of the league in scoring, despite leaving some potential points on the board by settling for FGs instead of TDs. What they're doing strategically is working and they're doing it with a roster that I suspect we can all agree is incomplete. It's natural to want the team to be an offensive powerhouse and to want to see the kind of big, splashy, downfield pass plays we saw when Culpepper was throwing to Moss but that's not what the team is built to do right now (or for some reason, it's not what they want to do right now) and what they are doing is working pretty well. Instead of fretting over what the team is missing, maybe we should be happier about what they're able to do despite missing some pieces that would make them even better.

It's just a thought...

Great post! I couldn't agree more.

Mothman wrote: This is a general comment and not just directed at any one individual:

The Vikings favor shorter passes but they are running 15-25 yard routes and connecting on them in every game. They've thrown deeper passes than that too. I apologize for stating the obvious but it just seems like a lot of comments in this ongoing, season-long discussion/obsession about the distance Ponder's passes are traveling often ends up being phrased as if the Vikings make no attempt to throw beyond the 5-10 yard mark. However, they've been doing it all year and having some success with it.

I'm not sure why this has become such an issue with fans and reporters. I know the long pass is one of the more exciting plays in football but for whatever reason, the Vikings don't feel inclined to throw a lot of them right now. It may be due to a lack of confidence in their receivers as deep threats, it may be due to a desire to control the clock and rest their defense, it might be because they favor high percentage plays that reduce the risk of turnovers and it might even be due to a lack of confidence in Ponder's ability to throw deep. Maybe it's a combination of all of the above and maybe not. Perhaps there are other factors too. Their efforts to add deep threats and new WR talent this offseason (Simpson, Childs and Wright) have resulted in 3 strikes so far so I suspect that has a lot do with it. However, the bottom line is the offense has moved the ball well with the strategy they're using. The team is winning and the offense is in the top half of the league in scoring, despite leaving some potential points on the board by settling for FGs instead of TDs. What they're doing strategically is working and they're doing it with a roster that I suspect we can all agree is incomplete. It's natural to want the team to be an offensive powerhouse and to want to see the kind of big, splashy, downfield pass plays we saw when Culpepper was throwing to Moss but that's not what the team is built to do right now (or for some reason, it's not what they want to do right now) and what they are doing is working pretty well. Instead of fretting over what the team is missing, maybe we should be happier about what they're able to do despite missing some pieces that would make them even better.

It's just a thought...

This post makes too much sense.