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halfgiz wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:37 pm I thought the whole reason we brought Cousins in was to get us to the next step.
We got to the NFC title game...Whats the next step?

We brought Cousins in because we had a bum at QB. Denver found that out. Yes we made the Champ game and didn't even show up for it. And we only made that game because we got a mirical to win a home playoff game. That's why the majority of the experts had us as a 500 team this year. Now the next step is to rebuild some of the roster starting with the OL. We only have one legit guy O'neil. The rest should be in the dumpster. That's alot of work for one off season. And only addresses one issue. We have many more and not enough time to rebuild everything that's wrong. And I haven't even touch the coaching. Especially on the offensive side. We have a joke for a coordinator but they did bring in his replacement already.

CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:43 am

halfgiz wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:37 pm I thought the whole reason we brought Cousins in was to get us to the next step.
We got to the NFC title game...Whats the next step?

We brought Cousins in because we had a bum at QB. Denver found that out. Yes we made the Champ game and didn't even show up for it. And we only made that game because we got a mirical to win a home playoff game. That's why the majority of the experts had us as a 500 team this year. Now the next step is to rebuild some of the roster starting with the OL. We only have one legit guy O'neil. The rest should be in the dumpster. That's alot of work for one off season. And only addresses one issue. We have many more and not enough time to rebuild everything that's wrong. And I haven't even touch the coaching. Especially on the offensive side. We have a joke for a coordinator but they did bring in his replacement already.

Revisionist history? Most rankings had us as a top 3 team, and I am having a hard time finding a ranking that had us worse than 5.

The Oline was has been a consistent issue since 2014 when Loadholt, Fusco and Sullivan got hurt, and Kahlil began to regress. It was an issue when we went 11-5, it was an issue when we went 13-3.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:29 am
The Oline was has been a consistent issue since 2014 when Loadholt, Fusco and Sullivan got hurt, and Kahlil began to regress. It was an issue when we went 11-5, it was an issue when we went 13-3.

The low water mark for the offensive line were the last two years of the Norv Turner at OC era. The line took a big jump forward with Sparano/Shurmer (Reiff, Remmers, Elflein), then regressed slightly through injuries last year. When healthy, this line is probably about league average as a unit. When they brought in Collins as a 6th OL and kept Morgan in at TE two years ago, they were actually able to impose their will and run the ball pretty consistently. I'm not opposed to going 6 OL with either Collins or O'Neill at 'TE' pretty often this year.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:14 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:29 am
The Oline was has been a consistent issue since 2014 when Loadholt, Fusco and Sullivan got hurt, and Kahlil began to regress. It was an issue when we went 11-5, it was an issue when we went 13-3.

The low water mark for the offensive line were the last two years of the Norv Turner at OC era. The line took a big jump forward with Sparano/Shurmer (Reiff, Remmers, Elflein), then regressed slightly through injuries last year. When healthy, this line is probably about league average as a unit. When they brought in Collins as a 6th OL and kept Morgan in at TE two years ago, they were actually able to impose their will and run the ball pretty consistently. I'm not opposed to going 6 OL with either Collins or O'Neill at 'TE' pretty often this year.

We regressed last year because of multiple reasons. Not just injuries. Reiff regressed, maybe because of his foot injury or maybe just got worse, I don’t know. We replaced Easton with Compton. Woof. Elflein was banged up. Remmers was the replacement for Berger, double woof and O’Neill was our bright spot. But the main thing is, we lost a legit OC that had balance in his offense and Sparano passed away. That was the big reason for regressing IMO. And the fact that both our guards were terrible

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:17 am

fiestavike wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:14 pm

The low water mark for the offensive line were the last two years of the Norv Turner at OC era. The line took a big jump forward with Sparano/Shurmer (Reiff, Remmers, Elflein), then regressed slightly through injuries last year. When healthy, this line is probably about league average as a unit. When they brought in Collins as a 6th OL and kept Morgan in at TE two years ago, they were actually able to impose their will and run the ball pretty consistently. I'm not opposed to going 6 OL with either Collins or O'Neill at 'TE' pretty often this year.

We regressed last year because of multiple reasons. Not just injuries. Reiff regressed, maybe because of his foot injury or maybe just got worse, I don’t know. We replaced Easton with Compton. Woof. Elflein was banged up. Remmers was the replacement for Berger, double woof and O’Neill was our bright spot. But the main thing is, we lost a legit OC that had balance in his offense and Sparano passed away. That was the big reason for regressing IMO. And the fact that both our guards were terrible

Losing Sparano was a big blow. And you have to give Rick credit for O'neil. The kid did a good job.And he is just starting. Maybe Elf will rebound which would be great news. If not we better have a player ready. Even Easton could fill a G spot. That would be great. So if Elf and Easton are back we are in good shape. And by back I mean playing as before the injury. Not what Elf did last year.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:17 am

fiestavike wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:14 pm

The low water mark for the offensive line were the last two years of the Norv Turner at OC era. The line took a big jump forward with Sparano/Shurmer (Reiff, Remmers, Elflein), then regressed slightly through injuries last year. When healthy, this line is probably about league average as a unit. When they brought in Collins as a 6th OL and kept Morgan in at TE two years ago, they were actually able to impose their will and run the ball pretty consistently. I'm not opposed to going 6 OL with either Collins or O'Neill at 'TE' pretty often this year.

We regressed last year because of multiple reasons. Not just injuries. Reiff regressed, maybe because of his foot injury or maybe just got worse, I don’t know. We replaced Easton with Compton. Woof. Elflein was banged up. Remmers was the replacement for Berger, double woof and O’Neill was our bright spot. But the main thing is, we lost a legit OC that had balance in his offense and Sparano passed away. That was the big reason for regressing IMO. And the fact that both our guards were terrible

Losing Easton and Berger, and having an injured Elflein didn't help. Reiff probably wasn't helped by playing next to Compton, and certainly was done no favors by Cousins total lack of pocket presence.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:21 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:17 am

We regressed last year because of multiple reasons. Not just injuries. Reiff regressed, maybe because of his foot injury or maybe just got worse, I don’t know. We replaced Easton with Compton. Woof. Elflein was banged up. Remmers was the replacement for Berger, double woof and O’Neill was our bright spot. But the main thing is, we lost a legit OC that had balance in his offense and Sparano passed away. That was the big reason for regressing IMO. And the fact that both our guards were terrible

Losing Easton and Berger, and having an injured Elflein didn't help. Reiff probably wasn't helped by playing next to Compton, and certainly was done no favors by Cousins total lack of pocket presence.

Total lack of pocket presence. The guy took a beating. He's lucky they didn't cart him off the field. He was hit more than any QB. And with no protection broke some records. We need 4 OL players. That won't happen in one off season. So we will blow again next year. Unless people expect Elf to be a good starter when he never was to begin with. Or the great Easton coming back. Again good luck with him because he blows even when healthy. They won't sign him anyway. So he's off the radar.

CharVike wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:40 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:21 pm

Losing Easton and Berger, and having an injured Elflein didn't help. Reiff probably wasn't helped by playing next to Compton, and certainly was done no favors by Cousins total lack of pocket presence.

Total lack of pocket presence. The guy took a beating. He's lucky they didn't cart him off the field. He was hit more than any QB. And with no protection broke some records. We need 4 OL players. That won't happen in one off season. So we will blow again next year. Unless people expect Elf to be a good starter when he never was to begin with. Or the great Easton coming back. Again good luck with him because he blows even when healthy. They won't sign him anyway. So he's off the radar.

He was not hit more than any QB.

The line was adequate at pass blocking and bad at run blocking.

I am not expecting the line to get that much better this season as I don't think the guy putting the line together has any idea what a good offensive lineman looks like.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:01 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:40 pm
Total lack of pocket presence. The guy took a beating. He's lucky they didn't cart him off the field. He was hit more than any QB. And with no protection broke some records. We need 4 OL players. That won't happen in one off season. So we will blow again next year. Unless people expect Elf to be a good starter when he never was to begin with. Or the great Easton coming back. Again good luck with him because he blows even when healthy. They won't sign him anyway. So he's off the radar.

He was not hit more than any QB.

The line was adequate at pass blocking and bad at run blocking.

I am not expecting the line to get that much better this season as I don't think the guy putting the line together has any idea what a good offensive lineman looks like.

He was 2nd most pressured QB in the nfl....our OL was on pace to break the record when it comes to pressures given up at one point this season so.....

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:25 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:01 pm
He was not hit more than any QB.

The line was adequate at pass blocking and bad at run blocking.

I am not expecting the line to get that much better this season as I don't think the guy putting the line together has any idea what a good offensive lineman looks like.

He was 2nd most pressured QB in the nfl....our OL was on pace to break the record when it comes to pressures given up at one point this season so.....

Because he held the ball longer than he should have and refused to move to avoid pressure.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:27 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:25 pm

He was 2nd most pressured QB in the nfl....our OL was on pace to break the record when it comes to pressures given up at one point this season so.....

Because he held the ball longer than he should have and refused to move to avoid pressure.

Did that happen at times? Yeah it does with a lot of QBs. But that is NOT the reason he was the 2nd most pressured QB in the NFL. His first two years starting in Washington he was sacked 26 and 23 times. Which is pretty good. His last year in Washington his OL was terrible and he was sacked 41 and this year his OL was horrible and he was sacked 40 times. If the guy was consistently sacked 40 times with good OLs, then yeah, that is probably the reason he's getting sacked because he's holding the ball too long and not avoiding pressure. And dont try to pull up your "time to throw" stat off NextGen stats because Ben Roethlisberger has the #1 OL in all of football and it says that he was tied for the least time to throw of any QB in the NFL. And he's the definition of a QB that holds the ball too long. There is very little validity to that stat for not just Cousins but any QB in this league.

But if you're really going to sit here and try to defend this offensive line in any way outside of Brian O'Neill (who gave up 0 sacks), then you're really letting your "Cousins hate" take over your opinion of everything. They werent "adequate" at pass blocking and poor at run blocking. How do you even know if we were poor at run blocking? We didnt run the ball!! How does anyone know if we were good in that area or not?! But I can tell you right now, Elflein, Compton and Remmers were all terrible pass blockers and Reiff was downright terrible in a decent chunk of games this year. Especially Buffalo. There is no winning that argument man

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:24 am

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:27 am
Because he held the ball longer than he should have and refused to move to avoid pressure.

Did that happen at times? Yeah it does with a lot of QBs. But that is NOT the reason he was the 2nd most pressured QB in the NFL. His first two years starting in Washington he was sacked 26 and 23 times. Which is pretty good. His last year in Washington his OL was terrible and he was sacked 41 and this year his OL was horrible and he was sacked 40 times. If the guy was consistently sacked 40 times with good OLs, then yeah, that is probably the reason he's getting sacked because he's holding the ball too long and not avoiding pressure. And dont try to pull up your "time to throw" stat off NextGen stats because Ben Roethlisberger has the #1 OL in all of football and it says that he was tied for the least time to throw of any QB in the NFL. And he's the definition of a QB that holds the ball too long. There is very little validity to that stat for not just Cousins but any QB in this league.

But if you're really going to sit here and try to defend this offensive line in any way outside of Brian O'Neill (who gave up 0 sacks), then you're really letting your "Cousins hate" take over your opinion of everything. They werent "adequate" at pass blocking and poor at run blocking. How do you even know if we were poor at run blocking? We didnt run the ball!! How does anyone know if we were good in that area or not?! But I can tell you right now, Elflein, Compton and Remmers were all terrible pass blockers and Reiff was downright terrible in a decent chunk of games this year. Especially Buffalo. There is no winning that argument man

Buffalo was a bad game for the line, as was LA. Those were the exceptions though.

We had a QB who didn't move well and who did not get rid of the ball quickly, yet our sack rate was 9th lowest in the NFL. That is impossible without at least adequate pass blocking.

It wasn't good but it wasn't so bad that Cousins couldn't have been successful.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:10 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:24 am

Did that happen at times? Yeah it does with a lot of QBs. But that is NOT the reason he was the 2nd most pressured QB in the NFL. His first two years starting in Washington he was sacked 26 and 23 times. Which is pretty good. His last year in Washington his OL was terrible and he was sacked 41 and this year his OL was horrible and he was sacked 40 times. If the guy was consistently sacked 40 times with good OLs, then yeah, that is probably the reason he's getting sacked because he's holding the ball too long and not avoiding pressure. And dont try to pull up your "time to throw" stat off NextGen stats because Ben Roethlisberger has the #1 OL in all of football and it says that he was tied for the least time to throw of any QB in the NFL. And he's the definition of a QB that holds the ball too long. There is very little validity to that stat for not just Cousins but any QB in this league.

But if you're really going to sit here and try to defend this offensive line in any way outside of Brian O'Neill (who gave up 0 sacks), then you're really letting your "Cousins hate" take over your opinion of everything. They werent "adequate" at pass blocking and poor at run blocking. How do you even know if we were poor at run blocking? We didnt run the ball!! How does anyone know if we were good in that area or not?! But I can tell you right now, Elflein, Compton and Remmers were all terrible pass blockers and Reiff was downright terrible in a decent chunk of games this year. Especially Buffalo. There is no winning that argument man

Buffalo was a bad game for the line, as was LA. Those were the exceptions though.

We had a QB who didn't move well and who did not get rid of the ball quickly, yet our sack rate was 9th lowest in the NFL. That is impossible without at least adequate pass blocking.

It wasn't good but it wasn't so bad that Cousins couldn't have been successful.

Those games were the only two that were exceptions? Did you watch some of these games? Our interior was abused by Deforest Buckner vs. SF, Arizona they were horrendous and gave up 4 sacks, the Saints game was horrendous, both Bears games our front was dominated. The Patriots game I dont think Cousins could breath because Belichick was blitzing non-stop. Same goes for Seattle. There were some games where they played well like Philly and a few others. But overall, this OL was not good in any way shape or form. Especially the interior and Reiffs bad moments.

As for sack rate, yeah we are 9th and we had the 4th highest pass attempts in the NFL. The only teams that passed more than us were Pitt and Indy. And Atlanta by like 1 or 2 passes. But here is my point with this....look at Pitt and Indy. Big Ben threw 70 more times than Cousins. That's like 2 games worth. And Luck threw about 35 times more than Cousins which is a games worth. And those QBs were sacked 24 times (Big Ben) and 18 times (Luck). Luck can move somewhat and has a very quick release. However, Big Ben can no longer move and is the definition of a QB that holds the ball too long and he was sacked 24 times. Cousins was sacked 40 times in 70 LESS pass attempts. He was sacked 16 MORE times than a QB that holds the ball way too long and can no longer move and had two more games worth of attempts on him. Bottom line is, your OL isnt doing their job. And it goes to show how good Pitts OL was and how bad our was.

If he holds the ball too long all the time, then how did he only get sacked in the mid to low 20's in Washington his first two seasons? He tied a career high for pass attempts this year with 606. Last time he threw for 606, 2016 in Washington with a good OL. How many times did he get sacked? 23.....weird. It was also the last time he had a legit OC in McVay. Another factor that plays a HUGE part in things.

Either way, Big Ben and Cousins from a mobility and release standpoint are very similar. One got sacked 24 times with 70 more pass attempts and league high. The other was sacked 40 times with 70 less pass attempts. That's night and day right there.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:26 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:10 am
Buffalo was a bad game for the line, as was LA. Those were the exceptions though.

We had a QB who didn't move well and who did not get rid of the ball quickly, yet our sack rate was 9th lowest in the NFL. That is impossible without at least adequate pass blocking.

It wasn't good but it wasn't so bad that Cousins couldn't have been successful.

Those games were the only two that were exceptions? Did you watch some of these games? Our interior was abused by Deforest Buckner vs. SF, Arizona they were horrendous and gave up 4 sacks, the Saints game was horrendous, both Bears games our front was dominated. The Patriots game I dont think Cousins could breath because Belichick was blitzing non-stop. Same goes for Seattle. There were some games where they played well like Philly and a few others. But overall, this OL was not good in any way shape or form. Especially the interior and Reiffs bad moments.

As for sack rate, yeah we are 9th and we had the 4th highest pass attempts in the NFL. The only teams that passed more than us were Pitt and Indy. And Atlanta by like 1 or 2 passes. But here is my point with this....look at Pitt and Indy. Big Ben threw 70 more times than Cousins. That's like 2 games worth. And Luck threw about 35 times more than Cousins which is a games worth. And those QBs were sacked 24 times (Big Ben) and 18 times (Luck). Luck can move somewhat and has a very quick release. However, Big Ben can no longer move and is the definition of a QB that holds the ball too long and he was sacked 24 times. Cousins was sacked 40 times in 70 LESS pass attempts. He was sacked 16 MORE times than a QB that holds the ball way too long and can no longer move and had two more games worth of attempts on him. Bottom line is, your OL isnt doing their job. And it goes to show how good Pitts OL was and how bad our was.

If he holds the ball too long all the time, then how did he only get sacked in the mid to low 20's in Washington his first two seasons? He tied a career high for pass attempts this year with 606. Last time he threw for 606, 2016 in Washington with a good OL. How many times did he get sacked? 23.....weird. It was also the last time he had a legit OC in McVay. Another factor that plays a HUGE part in things.

Either way, Big Ben and Cousins from a mobility and release standpoint are very similar. One got sacked 24 times with 70 more pass attempts and league high. The other was sacked 40 times with 70 less pass attempts. That's night and day right there.

#1 Big Ben had the second shortest time to throw in the NFL last season. He wasn't sacked a lot because he got rid of the ball quickly.

#2 Big Ben is harder to bring down than Cousins. Although he is similar in not wanting to move from the pocket.

Teams started to do a lot of stunts up the middle versus the Vikings because that is where we were weakest blocking and because Cousins refused to move from the pocket. Stunts should open up the edge for the QB to escape too, but Cousins either didn't recognize the stunts, or chose not to buy time.

#3 Cousins was sacked less in DC because the line was great. You seem to be under the impression that a line is either horrible or great, with nothing in between. We were in between. DC was unable to sustain that line for very long, and it regressed along with Cousins. That is pretty typical of most great lines. They last for a couple of years and then injury and FAs come into play and they turn into Oakland's or DC's lines. That is why having a QB who helps his line with quick reads(Brady, Brees) or a QB who can buy time with his legs is so important to sustained success.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:42 am
#1 Big Ben had the second shortest time to throw in the NFL last season. He wasn't sacked a lot because he got rid of the ball quickly.

Not necessarily. Roethlisberger is a QB that has always been viewed as a QB that has held the ball too long. Maybe he got it out quicker this year but his line has been significantly better the last few years. They use to have one of the worst OLs in the league. He was getting sacked 40-50 times a year but now you're saying he's getting the ball out quick? So are you saying from '06-'14 he wasnt getting the ball out quick but now all of the sudden he is? Bottom line is, his OL is actually good. Ours isnt.

#2 Big Ben is harder to bring down than Cousins. Although he is similar in not wanting to move from the pocket.

Him being harder to bring down doesnt really effect sack numbers all that much. Like I said, the guy was sacked 40+ times a year for a long stretch.

Teams started to do a lot of stunts up the middle versus the Vikings because that is where we were weakest blocking and because Cousins refused to move from the pocket. Stunts should open up the edge for the QB to escape too, but Cousins either didn't recognize the stunts, or chose not to buy time.

So that's Cousins fault that his interior sucks? He's a pure pocket passing QB. Not a scrambler. Tom Brady isnt a scrambler and doesnt move from the pocket when pressured.... but guess what, he actually has an OL that can hold up.

#3 Cousins was sacked less in DC because the line was great. You seem to be under the impression that a line is either horrible or great, with nothing in between. We were in between. DC was unable to sustain that line for very long, and it regressed along with Cousins. That is pretty typical of most great lines. They last for a couple of years and then injury and FAs come into play and they turn into Oakland's or DC's lines. That is why having a QB who helps his line with quick reads(Brady, Brees) or a QB who can buy time with his legs is so important to sustained success.

Cousins OL wasnt great. It was good. They hovered around top 10-12. Ours is at the bottom of the barrel. When have I ever said that OLs are either great or horrible? My point is, Washingtons OL wasnt great but it was good enough to keep their QB upright and only sacked 20-25 times a year. That's all you really need from an OL when it comes to pass protection. To be good enough. The great OLs in this league like Dallas, Oakland at one time, Tennessee, etc, they havent gotten their teams very far. So we dont need to break the bank and invest everything into our OL but is it that hard to get to Washingtons level in 2015 and 2016? No.

How can you possibly say our OL was "in between" dude? This is just you trying to put more fault on Cousins to help your argument. They were horrible this year. There was literally one good OL (in pass protection this year). ONE out of 5. And Hill was in there often early on, so that gives you 0 out of 5 before O'Neill took over. That's disgusting. Far from "in between".

And Washington's OL regressed along with Cousins?? His OL in 2017 in Washington was literally covered with injuries and no longer had any WRs there. How did Cousins regress? If anything, he lost an elite OC in Sean McVay, lost the majority of his OL and had a #1 WR of Terrelle Pryor. But yeah, of course that all falls on Cousins I guess like everything else. He didnt kick Sean McVay out of town (he actually got him noticed), he didnt injure his offensive line and he sure didnt dump all of his WRs.

I mean the last thing I ever thought, was for someone on this board to even slightly defend this OL in any way. We've only been begging for offensive lineman for years now. Literally blows my mind that someone is trying to sit here and say they were "in between great and horrible". Sorry but that truly makes me question your football knowledge and shows me you've become completely blinded by your hate for Cousins. I'm officially done with this conversation