Vikings Message Board.Com

J. Kapp 11 wrote: When you watch Teddy, you don't see those flinching traits. Teddy is aware of the rush, but not consumed by it. In fact, he's downright calm. Cassel is better than Ponder when he's rushed, but nowhere near as calm as Teddy.

It looks like the game is already very slow for Teddy, I think we have a very special player on our hands. Just please stay healthy Teddy, we really want to see more of this. His true explosion game is going to be something to see.

This reply was supposed to in the Robison thread . I thought it would be more appropriate here.

The Breeze wrote:I agree that Ponder looked the part of a calm guy for the first part of the game. I think he's broken though. May have been different in a different situation. Water under the bridge.

Having said that, I also agree that the problems run deeper than that. We're gonna find out soon just how bad they are. It's one thing to fail at getting rid of the ball on time...it's another thing entirely to have your stud tackle routinely get nothing on a DE headed toward the pocket.
As much as I wanted TB to get some time to watch...i'm now curious to see what happens when a competent QB (not Cassel or Ponder's m.o.) is back there.

Excluding last seasons circus this team has managed to keep their QB healthy twice in about 10 years...and both of those seasons ended when the QB was smashed during the playoffs or on the final game before. Two have already gone down this year.

This debate will likely be resolved before December. Even if TB stays upright and manages to move the chains, I still see significant issues on the line.

I really hope i've seen the last of Ponder for Bridgwater's sake, but i would not bet against it.

I'm not solely blaming the poor QB play on the loss but I disagree that our 3rd stringer looked fine early on. Take his first drop back.



Loadholt clearly gets beat. He tries to keep his body on the defender and seals him to the left.


At this point, if the QB saw or felt the pressure, he could've read the block and scrambled to the right of Loadholt to extend the play.


But the QB does the worst thing he can do. He runs to the side of the defender forcing the tackle to hold.




Far fetched? Maybe. But I truly think a better QB would've handled the same situation much differently. IMO, there were two failures on that play, Loadholt's missed block, and the QB's reaction to the missed block. Instead of minimizing the damage, the QB compounds the problem with his reaction.

Are there problems with the OL? Yes. Will a better QB make a difference? I think so.


The other play that was brought up was the crossing route to Wright.

IMO, the QB chose the wrong target. Wright was the only one behind the LOS and was a poor choice. The TE down the middle or Jennings are easy throws that would've resulted a 1st down.


It also looks like the QB stares down his receiver. The defenders are already in position and reacting even before the pass is thrown.





As far as the Vikings QBs always getting hurt. Maybe it has something to do with signing older QBs. I don't think you can blame protection for either of the injuries this year. But it does make you wonder how Eli, Brady, Brees stay healthy after all these years.

808vikingsfan wrote:Far fetched? Maybe. But I truly think a better QB would've handled the same situation much differently. IMO, there were two failures on that play, Loadholt's missed block, and the QB's reaction to the missed block. Instead of minimizing the damage, the QB compounds the problem with his reaction.

No offense but yes, it's far-fetched. Loadholt gets beat right off the snap on that play. Ponder is still in his drop back and hasn't even had a chance to set his feet in the pocket, where he's supposed to be, and look downfield, where he's supposed to look. Loadholt is supposed to give him at least a little time. I don't think Ponder did anything that could be classified as a mistake on that play. In an absolutely ideal world, is there something he could have done that might have yielded a more positive outcome? Perhaps but it wouldn't have mattered anyway. The damage was done and the play was nullified because Loadholt didn't just get beat, he held the defender and the refs threw the flag.

The other play that was brought up was the crossing route to Wright.

It also looks like the QB stares down his receiver. The defenders are already in position and reacting even before the pass is thrown.

They're playing to prevent the first down and I don't think Jennings or the TE look open on that play. Given the situation, I'd say the odds are good that Ponder went to his primary target, the Packers read the play and defended it well.

808vikingsfan wrote:This reply was supposed to in the Robison thread . I thought it would be more appropriate here.

Great job with those, clearly showing without a shadow of the doubt how bad Ponder is.

Loadholt recovers and seals his guy to the inside, giving Ponder a lane to move right and up and what does he do? He runs left straight into the pressure and because of THAT the angle changes taking Loadholts block from a legal one to now being a hold as well as getting himself sacked.

The next play it looks like the TE (or whoever that is) standing at the top of the G near the 50 is coming WIDE OPEN. All the LB's are moving left as he STARES DOWN jarius wright. In one two more frames this guy will be wide open at the right hash mark with a lot of open space.

Jennings or whoever the WR is at the top of the screen also at the 50, would easily be wide open if he's running a comeback route, I don't know what the rest of the play looks like so maybe he isn't. He's well past the 1st down marker so if he cuts back and towards the side line that is an easy routine throw for anyone not named Ponder. Of course Ponder can't get past his first read so it's a moot point but as usual, multiple receivers are open but check down charlie goes with the only one that won't pick up the first down.

808vikingsfan wrote:I'm not solely blaming the poor QB play on the loss but I disagree that our 3rd stringer looked fine early on.

This explains it just as well:

mondry wrote: Great job with those, clearly showing without a shadow of the doubt how bad Ponder is.

Loadholt recovers and seals his guy to the inside, giving Ponder a lane to move right and up and what does he do? He runs left straight into the pressure and because of THAT the angle changes taking Loadholts block from a legal one to now being a hold as well as getting himself sacked.

I assure you, that's not what happened.

Here's the sequence from a more characteristic angle:



#1: Ponder is still dropping back. You can clearly see that Loadholt is being beaten to the inside. He's not sealing his defender off in any way that could be considered effective. The defender is just going around him.



#2: Ponder has reached the top of his drop. You can see that the defender is already past Loadholt (not sealed) and Loadholt is grabbing at him. You can also see that the defender is coming up the middle, because he took an inside lane to the QB.



#3: Loadholt is holding, the defender is still coming and Ponder, having reached the top of his drop, now sees that he's in trouble before he can really set to throw. Note that the defender is in front of him and that there is pressure coming from his right, where he was supposedly supposed to scramble to salvage this mess.



#4: Ponder is heading to his left, the only logical direction for him to go if you simply look at the pressure coming from his right and from the defender Loadholt is clinging to desperately.

I had a dream last night...Ponder is a great guy.

In my dream we were friends and he offered to help me get my arm back in shape. Such a good friend.

I know what you're thinking. "If it were me, I'd be dreaming about the other Ponder." Well, she was in it too! They skyped!

Mothman wrote: No offense but yes, it's far-fetched. Loadholt gets beat right off the snap on that play. Ponder is still in his drop back and hasn't even had a chance to set his feet in the pocket, where he's supposed to be, and look downfield, where he's supposed to look. Loadholt is supposed to give him at least a little time. I don't think Ponder did anything that could be classified as a mistake on that play. In an absolutely ideal world, is there something he could have done that might have yielded a more positive outcome? Perhaps but it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

No offense taken. I know on a perfect play what should happen. I'm trying to show how the QB reacted when the play wasn't perfect. Most QBs have their eyes downfield. But the good ones have a sense or feel of where the pressure is and when or how to elude it. Watch any of Romo's highlights. It usually becomes a highlight because of a missed block or assignment. He has a great feel for pressure. GB probably has an even worse OL than the Vikings. I would have to say that Rodgers is just as dangerous when he has to escape out of the pocket due to bad protection.

Mothman wrote:The damage was done and the play was nullified because Loadholt didn't just get beat, he held the defender and the refs threw the flag.

Like I said before, the QBs reaction is what caused the holding penalty (IMO of course). He gave Loadholt no other choice but to hold by scrambling in the same direction as the block. He made a bad play even worse whereas other QBs can salvage a bad play. With the current #7 (he was much better 2 years ago), there is no leeway. It's either everyone does their job perfectly, or, like you said, the damage is done and they have to move on to the next play.

Mothman wrote:They're playing to prevent the first down and I don't think Jennings or the TE look open on that play. Given the situation, I'd say the odds are good that Ponder went to his primary target, the Packers read the play and defended it well.

I don't know. I see 3 open receivers (and a nice pocket). Maybe not wide open, but open enough for a capable QB. And maybe, the Packers defended the play well because they knew the tendencies of the QB, which is a single read QB that stares down his target.

mondry wrote:The next play it looks like the TE (or whoever that is) standing at the top of the G near the 50 is coming WIDE OPEN. All the LB's are moving left as he STARES DOWN jarius wright. In one two more frames this guy will be wide open at the right hash mark with a lot of open space.

Jennings or whoever the WR is at the top of the screen also at the 50, would easily be wide open if he's running a comeback route, I don't know what the rest of the play looks like so maybe he isn't. He's well past the 1st down marker so if he cuts back and towards the side line that is an easy routine throw for anyone not named Ponder. Of course Ponder can't get past his first read so it's a moot point but as usual, multiple receivers are open but check down charlie goes with the only one that won't pick up the first down.

I just re-watched the play several times. Ponder doesn't stare down Wright the whole time. He actually appears to be looking toward Jennings at the start of the play.

Jennings runs a "down and in" on the play, not a comeback route. He's not open.

The TE is never wide open on the play either. By the time that second shot above was taken, Ponder was already into his throwing motion and the defense was reacting to it and Wright. The TE appears open at that point because he's clearly not the target of the play.

"Checkdown Charlie" appears to go to Wright on this play for two reasons: 1.) he's open and 2.) there's not enough time to wait for the deeper routes to develop further. Ponder gets leveled right after making the throw and less than 3 seconds after snap. What he doesn't do is stare down his receiver the whole time and since he starts the play looking at Jennings, not Wright, he probably did look past his first read.

He doesn't have multiple receivers open, he doesn't panic and he takes a hit immediately after the throw yet somehow, this play's failure to result in a first down was his fault?

808vikingsfan wrote:Like I said before, the QBs reaction is what caused the holding penalty (IMO of course). He gave Loadholt no other choice but to hold by scrambling in the same direction as the block.

If you look at the screencaps I just posted or watch the play again, you'll see that Loadholt was holding before Ponder even reacted to the pressure. Ponder's movement had nothing to do with the penalty. In shots 2 and 3 you can see Loadholt reaching and holding well before Ponder ever scrambled.

I don't know. I see 3 open receivers (and a nice pocket). Maybe not wide open, but open enough for a capable QB. And maybe, the Packers defended the play well because they knew the tendencies of the QB, which is a single read QB that stares down his target

Maybe... film study probably played a role but they also knew the Vikings only needed 3 yards for a first down and they defended accordingly.

Regarding the open receivers: the outside receiver isn't even looking for the ball yet. In the second shot, he's getting ready to cut to the inside and complete his route. A throw to the TE would have required Ponder to put enough arc on that ball to get it over the two defenders in front the TE but he's also have to get it to the TE before that safety came up. That's an inadvisable throw.

Maybe there was a better choice to be made on this play but it looks to me like Ponder made a sound decision and Green Bay simply defended it well. Not every play is a winner.

Mothman wrote: I assure you, that's not what happened.

Here's the sequence from a more characteristic angle:



#1: Ponder is still dropping back. You can clearly see that Loadholt is being beaten to the inside. He's not sealing his defender off in any way that could be considered effective. The defender is just going around him.



#2: Ponder has reached the top of his drop. You can see that the defender is already past Loadholt (not sealed) and Loadholt is grabbing at him. You can also see that the defender is coming up the middle, because he took an inside lane to the QB.



#3: Loadholt is holding, the defender is still coming and Ponder, having reached the top of his drop, now sees that he's in trouble before he can really set to throw. Note that the defender is in front of him and that there is pressure coming from his right, where he was supposedly supposed to scramble to salvage this mess.



#4: Ponder is heading to his left, the only logical direction for him to go if you simply look at the pressure coming from his right and from the defender Loadholt is clinging to desperately.

In pics #2 and #3, if the qb felt the pressure at around this time, I believe he could have darted through the tackle and guard. It would take a quick decision, more of an instinctive move.

As far as Loadholt's penalty, he didn't get flagged until Ponder scrambled left where it was obvious enough to call the penalty.

808vikingsfan wrote:In pics #2 and #3, if the qb felt the pressure at around this time, I believe he could have darted through the tackle and guard. It would take a quick decision, more of an instinctive move.

I'll say! He was still completing his drop back in pic #2 and in pic #3 he is just seeing the pressure. How often do QBs respond to pressure by cutting off their dropback?

As far as Loadholt's penalty, he didn't get flagged until Ponder scrambled left where it was obvious enough to call the penalty.

It's where he commits the penalty that matters, not when the flag comes out. Nothing Ponder could have done would have prevented that holding call and you can literally see Loadholt holding in the pics. It's obvious even with his back turned.

It's clear who screwed up on this play and it wasn't the QB..

Mothman wrote: I'll say! He was still completing his drop back in pic #2 and in pic #3 he is just seeing the pressure. How often do QBs respond to pressure by cutting off their dropback?

I'm not sure he would have to stop his dropback, but scramble away from pressure? Good QBs do it often. That's why they're effective, they know how to feel pressure and extend plays.

Tony Romo Avoids Being Sacked by JJ Watt
Mind you, this is being replayed because it resulted in a TD. I'm guessing there's countless of times Romo does this just to avoid the loss of yards or to pick up a first down.

It's where he commits the penalty that matters, not when the flag comes out. Nothing Ponder could have done would have prevented that holding call and you can literally see Loadholt holding in the pics. It's obvious even with his back turned.

I disagree. Normally, refs will call holding only when obvious or it affects the play. If Loadholt drags his defender down, yes it will be called. If Ponder somehow steps up between the blocks, Loadholt has the position to hold his block and IMO, would not get flagged.

It's clear who screwed up on this play and it wasn't the QB..

I agree. Loadholt screwed up. But Ponder made the play worse by his reaction (or lack of it).

Funkytown wrote: This explains it just as well:

LOL.

To be clear. I'm not a Ponder hater. I had high hopes for him in 2012. He started off strong but when it came down to it, out of all of his playing time in the past 4 years, I never once had that feeling like "he could be the one". Not once. It took TB one game for me to feel that.

I think the hatred toward him is more of a result of him being a starter when he clearly shouldn't have been last year. Doesn't mean I can't enjoy a good joke.

Good one.