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SuburbannSaint wrote:[
Who Dat Nation here. Cant believe some of you are still sour over a game 9 years ago. Oh they hit us to hard. They were getting paid to hit us hard. No one said anything about the 5 turnovers. Could have been 7. Grow the hell up and take some damn credit for own downfall. See ya Sunday...

Y'all make sure you come on back here after the game on Sunday and we'll see what you have to say then.

Breesus wrote: No denying that the Vikings are an excellent team - I'd take that defense over everyone else. Vikes are favored and rightfully so.

It's semi-useful to look at things like record against common opponents and such to gauge the relative strength of the two teams when playing each other, but for me it comes down to matchups and venue. I think those will decide the outcome of this game, and I think most favor the Vikings.

The Saints offense is oriented around Drew Brees. Yes, they have a strong running game and a very good RB tandem in Kamara and Ingram. I will also grant that they have a solid offensive line. And, I will grant that Michael Thomas is a solid, if unspectacular, wide receiver. The problem for the Saints is, none of their strengths on offense really exposes a defensive weakness of the Vikings, especially with the Vikings being at home and having the crowd noise factor in their favor. Brees is a fantastic, veteran QB, and yes, I'll concede he's probably capable of winning this game with his arm if he is willing to take some chances and his blockers can keep him vertical and give him a pocket to throw out of. But I think the Vikings will get pressure on Brees. Probably a lot of pressure. I don't see Ingram and Kamara having a huge day running the ball. I don't see them having a huge day as receivers either. The Vikings could always implode defensively, and if they are sloppy or fall for the classic Saints misdirection plays, could give up some big chunks at times, but I don't see them having to sell out to stop any aspect of the Saint offense. They have the personnel to play the Saints straight up, which really will make Brees beat them. As I said, if there is a QB in the playoffs right now who could do that it's probably Brady or Brees, but Brees is going to have his work cut out for him.

The Saints defense, OTOH, doesn't match up nearly as well against the Vikings offense as most Saints fans seem to want to believe. Yes, Case Keenum has no playoff experience, but this is a home game, so both the field and crowd noise will not be a factor for him. He's not Drew Brees in terms of experience, but he's been his equal all year in terms of performance. So barring some massive reversion by Keenum, he poses as much of a threat to the Saint defense as Brees does to the Viking defense. He's mobile, accurate on the run, and has been smart with the ball. The one thing he's fallen off on a bit lately is his deep ball timing, but he can get it downfield when the opportunities present themselves. I think other aspects of the Vikings offense match up well against the Saints defense. The Saints have not been strong defending against TEs. The Vikings have some good pass catching TEs who can create mismatches with the Saints defense in the middle. The Saints have not been stellar defending runs between the tackles. The Vikings have been successful running between the tackles. I'd even say that is a strength of their offense. On the perimeter, Lattimore has had a great season, but he's still a rookie and he will be under constant pressure in this game trying to defend some savvy route runners in Thielen and Diggs. I'd be surprised if the Vikings don't target him several times in this game and make him prove he can handle it.

These are two good teams, and if this game were in New Orleans and the venue factor was in favor of the Saints, I'd be more inclined to think we'd see a game more like the one in 2009 where the Vikings ended up pressured into a lot of errors, but this game isn't in New Orleans and I really don't see a Mike Zimmer team making enough errors to turn the tide in favor of the Saints. The Saints are a dangerous team and a good team and will be a tough out, but the Vikings should be up to the task of getting that out and moving on.

We'll see what happens on Sunday, and may the best team win.

Breesus wrote:
You're right - tough to score on this D. IF the Saints put up more than 25 I think we win. Another point to consider is that the Vikes haven't beaten a decent team, other than Rams, Falcons, and Saints. Not too difficult to keep Trubisky, Hundley, Flacco, and Kizer under wraps. Cousins put up 30 pts on the Vikes. Same with the other side of the ball - Keenum's numbers are mostly against crap defenses. Still, the Vikes beat the Saints handily in Week 1. If you remember, the Saints had an identity crisis in the first few games - trying to get AP carries. Murray is a good back. Just noting that the Saints have done a decent job against good backs. I'm so glad we're not facing Dalvin Cook.

Wow. can't believe you went there. Lets see who did the Saints defense keep under wraps. Oh yeah, Trubisky, Hundley, Taylor, Petty...........I know, lets go for those top defense's the Saints played. In decreasing order by passing yards per game. Tampa, 32. Twice. New England, Yes New England, 30th in yards per game. Detroit, 27. Green Bay 23, Jets 21, Bills 20..........you get the idea. Some of the same teams the Vikings played.

BTW, Kamara was in for 50% of all offensive plays in the first game. Peterson, 14%. Seems to me like they already had their identity, they just couldn't put it together. Kamara and Ingrahm are top RB duo in the league. Want to guess who the number two duo is? Hint, they play for the Vikings and they only played mostly in only 12 games. Not so much the first 4.

And I don't know were this crap that some talking head on the NFL channel claimed that Lattimore didn't play the first game. But he sure did. Actually he played in 94% of all defensive snaps.

Raptorman wrote:BTW, Kamara was in for 50% of all offensive plays in the first game. Peterson, 14%.

Did not know this. Thanks Raptorman

So to address the title of this thread.

"The Saints are the better team"

Just one question. Are the Saints a better team with Brees and Kamara out? Because if you really want to judge the Vikings against them, you have to remember our two top offensive starters haven't been playing most of the year.

If the Saints can be were they are now without those two players most of the year, then yes, they are the better team.

Breesus wrote:You're right - tough to score on this D. IF the Saints put up more than 25 I think we win. Another point to consider is that the Vikes haven't beaten a decent team, other than Rams, Falcons, and Saints.

You do see the folly in your "haven't beaten a decent team" statement, don't you?

We not only beat those teams -- including your Saints -- but we beat them HANDILY. Every one of them. Beat your team the worst. You got four field goals until garbage time, when the game was 29-12.

And by the way, you LOST to the same teams we beat! The Rams. Tampa. Spit with Atlanta. So where do you get off telling Vikings fans our team hasn't beaten anybody?

Face it. We're at home, and we're the better team. Which means your season ends Sunday. You know it, and we know it.

SuburbannSaint wrote:Who Dat Nation here. Cant believe some of you are still sour over a game 9 years ago. Oh they hit us to hard. They were getting paid to hit us hard. No one said anything about the 5 turnovers. Could have been 7. Grow the hell up and take some damn credit for own downfall. See ya Sunday...

You know what? I agree with you. We Vikings fans need to stop complaining about 2009. Yes, I think Gregg Williams should have been banned for life, and Sean Payton got off easy with a year suspension. But the truth is that the Vikings imploded with 5 turnovers and handed a game to a team they completely dominated. You won. Good for you.

But you know what, friend? It ain't cool to come onto a Vikings message board troll the people here. Show some respect. You want to talk football, fine. But that crap isn't welcome.

I was not making fun of your dream because I do feel bad for Vikings fans but.....[/quote]
You feel bad for Vikings fans?

Remind me again how many Super Bowls the Falcons have won. Thought so.

We've won 20 division championships, been to 9 NFCCGs and 4 Super Bowls. Don't cry for us.[/quote]

Does not matter because neither team has won a superbowl.... so I don't know why you say thought so lol

Falcons34 wrote: Does not matter because neither team has won a superbowl.... so I don't know why you say thought so lol

Wasn't it like 42 years before the Falcons put together back to back winning seasons?

Raptorman wrote:

And I don't know were this crap that some talking head on the NFL channel claimed that Lattimore didn't play the first game. But he sure did. Actually he played in 94% of all defensive snaps.

and got torched. I don't know who he was guarding but either way he was torched.

Raptorman wrote:Two players make up most of their offense. Kamara and Ingrahm. Stop them and you stop the Saints.

Yards from scrimmage.

Code: Select all

Mark Ingram	   1540
Alvin Kamara	  1554
Michael Thomas	1245
Ted Ginn	       826
Brandon Coleman	364
Coby Fleener	   295

Vikings are more balanced on offense.

Yards from scrimmage.

Code: Select all

Adam Thielen	    1287
Jerick McKinnon	  991
Latavius Murray	  945
Stefon Diggs	     862
Kyle Rudolph	     532
Laquon Treadwell	 200
Jarius Wright	    198

Not criticizing you personally, but analyzing the offense without considering the defense is one of those cognitive biases - when trying to evaluate teams, one looks at stats, and the most readily available are offensive stats. Frankly, I'm surprised we look this good compared to the Saints. Playing on a neutral field, against a generic defense, I suspect that the Saints offense would perform better than our offense.

But when you compare the defenses, and the home field advantage, it's a pretty stark Vikings advantage. I looked for a common opponent where we played at home and the Saints played on the road, after the season had settled in a bit (since it's clear that the first game of the season didn't really count) and found the Rams games. We played the Rams at home, gave up 7 points and 254 yards. The Saints played the Rams on the road (no home crowd benefit) and gave up 26 points on 415 yards. And I just remembered Tampa Bay. The Vikes gave up 17 points and 342 yards to the Bucs, while the Saints on the road gave up 31 points and 455 yards. That's like two TD's difference and 130 yards average in those games.

soflavike wrote: Did a Saints fan just say that Barr intentionally hurt Rodgers? A Saints fan??? Really? The huge balls on this guy. Wow.

Dude, Rodgers hurt himself. It was a clean tackle and he didn't get "driven" into the turf. Barr fell onto him and Aaron's put his arm down to brace himself, which is what resulted in the break. It happens. There was no malice or intent to injure.

I hope your dirty coach doesn't send your guys out to hurt our QB again. And lets hope the zebras call a good game, too.

LOL - you should watch the video again. Not saying he was intentionally trying to break a collarbone, but he was intentionally trying to cause pain, and that's part of football. If you still believe that bounty crap had something to do with the Saints beating the Vikes in '09, then there's nothing I can tell you. Now if you want to #### about the refs, I can't argue so much. A better reason is the 20 or 30 turnovers the Vikes gave up that day.

Raptorman wrote:Wow. can't believe you went there. Lets see who did the Saints defense keep under wraps. Oh yeah, Trubisky, Hundley, Taylor, Petty...........I know, lets go for those top defense's the Saints played. In decreasing order by passing yards per game. Tampa, 32. Twice. New England, Yes New England, 30th in yards per game. Detroit, 27. Green Bay 23, Jets 21, Bills 20..........you get the idea. Some of the same teams the Vikings played.

BTW, Kamara was in for 50% of all offensive plays in the first game. Peterson, 14%. Seems to me like they already had their identity, they just couldn't put it together. Kamara and Ingrahm are top RB duo in the league. Want to guess who the number two duo is? Hint, they play for the Vikings and they only played mostly in only 12 games. Not so much the first 4.

And I don't know were this crap that some talking head on the NFL channel claimed that Lattimore didn't play the first game. But he sure did. Actually he played in 94% of all defensive snaps.

Of course I went there! The Vikes have the #1 defense in the league - that's your identity. No one's claiming the Saints 17th ranked D is it's strength. Murray and McKinnon are certainly talented, as is Thielen and Diggs. I think the game comes down to the Vikes offense vs Saints defense, and I don't feel like the Saints have an advantage. Oh, and Kamara had 6 carries in the first game while AP had 7. Both had only 18 yds.

Breesus wrote:
LOL - you should watch the video again. Not saying he was intentionally trying to break a collarbone, but he was intentionally trying to cause pain, and that's part of football. If you still believe that bounty crap had something to do with the Saints beating the Vikes in '09, then there's nothing I can tell you. Now if you want to #### about the refs, I can't argue so much. A better reason is the 20 or 30 turnovers the Vikes gave up that day.

Barr's hit was a tackle just like any other player would put on someone.

As for '09, Favre could barely walk by the end of the game. "Bounty crap"?? It happened. There is no denying that. Especially when Darren Sharper tweeted "X marks the spot" when everyone found out Favre's ankle was still an issue the following season and they played the Saints week 1. Pretty pathetic that your DC and that defense had to do that in order to try and win the game.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: You do see the folly in your "haven't beaten a decent team" statement, don't you?

We not only beat those teams -- including your Saints -- but we beat them HANDILY. Every one of them. Beat your team the worst. You got four field goals until garbage time, when the game was 29-12.

And by the way, you LOST to the same teams we beat! The Rams. Tampa. Spit with Atlanta. So where do you get off telling Vikings fans our team hasn't beaten anybody?

Face it. We're at home, and we're the better team. Which means your season ends Sunday. You know it, and we know it.

Your post reeks of fear. So are you saying that Tampa, Chicago, Cleveland, and Cincy are good teams?! Hell, the only good teams that the Saints beat were in our division. A few others were marginal - the Lions, Skins, and Bills. I didn't come here spouting that the Saints will destroy the Vikes, just wanted to get a fan's take. Some of your brethren have made some thoughtful, knowledgeable comments, so thanks to them.