Decision on Ponder's option may not be easy

[Webbfann]

Life has a way of throwing a monkey wrench into your day.

What if it turns out that Ponder ends up fitting better in Norv Turner's scheme then Cassell or the Rookie QB. The one guy fans and probably ownership wants to get rid of, out plays them both during evaluations. Would it be considered gutsy if the new staff just sticks with Ponder as the starter?

I would. Have to do what is best for the team.

You think running like a frightened chicken as soon as there is pressure and coughing up pick 6's is Norv's scheme? Let's hope not.

[Mothman]

Life has a way of throwing a monkey wrench into your day.

What if it turns out that Ponder ends up fitting better in Norv Turner's scheme then Cassell or the Rookie QB. The one guy fans and probably ownership wants to get rid of, out plays them both during evaluations. Would it be considered gutsy if the new staff just sticks with Ponder as the starter?

It would be gutsy and unpopular, unless it worked out well and led to a lot of wins, in which case people would quickly get over it.

It's an unlikely scenario though...

[frosted]

Case in point.

Case in point.

[Purple bruise]

You think running like a frightened chicken as soon as there is pressure and coughing up pick 6's is Norv's scheme? Let's hope not.

Man this frightened chicken has had some pretty good runs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C30CVhW-yuY

[Funkytown]

Can we please put an end to this sort of passive/aggressive posting?

We? As in me and you? Sure, I suppose we can, but it won't disappear altogether.

"He's not wrong about that?" Who are these people who supposedly want Cassel to fail so they can say "told you so"?

Well, you're focusing on the wrong part. I was mostly responding to the part about people turning Cassel into the new whipping boy and it already happening, NOT so much that people "want him to fail."

Why would any actual Vikings fan want him to fail?

Really? You, in all of your years of being a fan, have never seen it suggested that it would be better if a guy would just "suck" a little more, "so the next man up" can get out there? Come on, it happens all of the time. I don't get it a whole lot either, but does that mean that it's not happening? No. Does that mean you are doing that? No. Did I even say that? No. But, again, this stuff does happen, so I'm not sure why you are acting surprised. Heck, half of the time, people want the whole team to suck, just for the draft. Again, this isn't out of the ordinary.

He's penciled in as the Vikings starting quarterback so I hope he plays 18 straight games like he did against the Eagles last year, wins league MVP and fulfills webbfann's dream/fantasy by also becoming the MVP of a Vikings Super Bowl victory. I'd be be ecstatic if that happened.

As would I.

... and by the way, if you'd like me to defend Matt Cassel, I'll be happy to do so. Just point me to where he's being unfairly criticized.

Again, this wasn't even about you. It's just a general feeling I'm getting from the board already, which is why I commented after frosted and Koolaid. I've seen some of the same negativity expressed towards Cassel already that has been expressed towards Ponder. You haven't? You mean, when you read some of the negative comments about Cassel you can't switch out the name for Ponder? It's already happening. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it is happening, and, yes, I DO think as the season goes on and IF Cassel struggles, it'll be the same, "Next man up" stuff and "Oh my God. We might as well put Ponder in there! He's not much worse!" You should know how it goes by now. Deny it all you want, it'll happen. Heck, people mock Cassel already. And as I said earlier, simply "being better than Ponder" or being "anybody but Ponder" is only going to go so far. It won't take long for Vikings fans to go sour if the team isn't winning.

As far as Cassel being "unfairly criticized," I don't necessarily think he is. I also don't think that a lot of the criticism towards Ponder and Frazier is unfair either, but, you do defend them quite a lot. So, there's that. Maybe during the season, as people turn on Cassel the way that they have turned on players/coaches in the past, maybe it'll come back to you. Maybe you'll understand then. Heck, maybe you'll even defend Cassel a bit, because the criticism will get annoying and out of hand. Me though? I know you don't like this, but I already know that if Cassel struggles a teeny weeny amount that fans will turn on him. I don't need to "wait and see." I already know. We can watch together, though.

[Funkytown]

I dunno. Better than Ponder already has been a welcome relief and I'd be happy with a season where we just don't suck. Of course nothing short of 22 year old Aaron Rodgers will satisfy many people here. I'm convinced those people won't be satisfied unless we are grooming a young QB even if we win every game without one.
They will still be disgusted that we are winning with someone who isn't their young QB of the future. I don't give a damn who we win with as long as it isn't Michael Vick.

Truth.

[Purple bruise]

So all of the hypocritical cynics that have posted 100's of Ponder bashing posts are now concerned that some fans might/have bashed Cassell. That is the funniest crap that I have read yet
As a side bar, there are several who would be complaining if Tom Brady was traded here. There are those that complain about the owner, the GM, the new uniforms, most all of the players, the new stadium and some will be shocked if they are complaining about an average journeyman QB like Cassell....Tell me it isn't so

[Mothman]

We? As in me and you?

As in "everybody" and yes, I realize it won't disappear altogether.

It's just a general feeling I'm getting from the board already, which is why I commented after frosted and Koolaid. I've seen some of the same negativity expressed towards Cassel already that has been expressed towards Ponder. You haven't? You mean, when you read some of the negative comments about Cassel you can't switch out the name for Ponder? It's already happening. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it is happening, and, yes, I DO think as the season goes on and IF Cassel struggles, it'll be the same, "Next man up" stuff and "Oh my God. We might as well put Ponder in there! He's not much worse!" You should know how it goes by now. Deny it all you want, it'll happen. Heck, people mock Cassel already. And as I said earlier, simply "being better than Ponder" or being "anybody but Ponder" is only going to go so far. It won't take long for Vikings fans to go sour if the team isn't winning.

I've made the same point so I agree with you but I haven't seen a desire for him to fail being expressed. That was the point. However, you're right to point out the fickle nature of fans and I'm obviously well aware of it.

[Funkytown]

So all of the hypocritical cynics that have posted 100's of Ponder bashing posts are now concerned that some fans might/have bashed Cassell."

Who? I don't think "all of the hypocritical cynics" are concerned...but okay.

That is the funniest crap that I have read yet

Really? Do you read your own stuff? You always have 42 laughing smilies, I bet your posts are the funniest. They must be!

As a side bar, there are several who would be complaining if Tom Brady was traded here. There are those that complain about the owner, the GM, the new uniforms, most all of the players, the new stadium and some will be shocked if they are complaining about an average journeyman QB like Cassell....Tell me it isn't so

Well, it isn't so. We are talking about Cassel.

Hey, your buddy Jim asked if the passive-aggressive posts could stop. Respect the man.

[Mothman]

Hey, your buddy Jim asked if the passive-aggressive posts could stop. Respect the man.

LOL! Yeah, that stuff isn't helping either.

We're all Vikings fans here. We should be able to agree and disagree without dividing into warring tribes. Sheesh, another losing season and this place might become a football forum version of "Lord of the Flies".

[Funkytown]

I've made the same point so I agree with you but I haven't seen a desire for him to fail being expressed. That was the point. However, you're right to point out the fickle nature of fans and I'm obviously well aware of it.

Yeah, I saw that after I responded to you. I thought, "Ha. See? Moth does get it! What is he even arguing about?" As I said, you were focusing on a part of a post that I wasn't necessarily agreeing with. However, sit back and relax. I'm sure the "wanting him to fail" isn't that far off. We want that rookie in there, don't we?!? He is the future!

[Mothman]

Yeah, I saw that after I responded to you. I thought, "Ha. See? Moth does get it! What is he even arguing about?" As I said, you were focusing on a part of a post that I wasn't necessarily agreeing with. However, sit back and relax. I'm sure the "wanting him to fail" isn't that far off. We want that rookie in there, don't we?!? He is the future!

[Funkytown]

LOL! Yeah, that stuff isn't helping either.

We're all Vikings fans here. We should be able to agree and disagree without dividing into warring tribes. Sheesh, another losing season and this place might become a football forum version of "Lord of the Flies".

People are passionate about their sports. I imagine other fan message boards are similar. Sports are serious.

[Funkytown]

Debatable but I think a big difference was the level of competition each QB faced. Except for CLE, CHI and 3 quarters of SEA, the rest of teams Ponder faced were in the bottom 16 in pass defense. Cassel only faced one team in the bottom 16 (PHI). Also, Peterson was injured in the last quarter of the season and missed or was limited in the last 4 games Cassel started.

The other thing Maembe didn't include is Ponder's 7 fumbles (4 lost). I think if you add Ponder's rushing TD's in a stat line, you should also add fumbles.

I know Maembe is saying both QB's suck but I still believe one deserved to start over the other. I remember hearing how poor Ponder was doing in training camp, then watching how bad he looked in preseason, and finally watching him commit 7 turnovers in his first 3 starts in the regular season. If Zimmer puts his best team on the field, in my eyes, he's already ahead of Frazier.

Good points, 808.

[Mothman]

Debatable but I think a big difference was the level of competition each QB faced. Except for CLE, CHI and 3 quarters of SEA, the rest of teams Ponder faced were in the bottom 16 in pass defense. Cassel only faced one team in the bottom 16 (PHI). Also, Peterson was injured in the last quarter of the season and missed or was limited in the last 4 games Cassel started.

The other thing Maembe didn't include is Ponder's 7 fumbles (4 lost). I think if you add Ponder's rushing TD's in a stat line, you should also add fumbles.

I know Maembe is saying both QB's suck but I still believe one deserved to start over the other. I remember hearing how poor Ponder was doing in training camp, then watching how bad he looked in preseason, and finally watching him commit 7 turnovers in his first 3 starts in the regular season. If Zimmer puts his best team on the field, in my eyes, he's already ahead of Frazier.

Good post and good points, especially about the level of competition.

Here's what I think sometimes gets lost in the "put the best team on the field" talk:

In theory, that's a great idea and a coach should be trying to win but in practice, he has other considerations if he's on a rebuilding (or, if you prefer, just "building") team. Does he try to develop younger players who he feels need the playing experience and let them play through adversity or does he try to squeeze every win out of the schedule and always go with the player most ready to play in the moment? I don't think it's an easy choice and I think a lot of the personnel-related complaints people had about Frazier likely boiled down to this and related issues (like what's best for a young player's development in the first place, which may vary from one individual to another).

Based on what I've seen here, I'd say the general consensus among fans is that they want who they perceive to be the best player at any given position on the field. However, from a coaching perspective, the choice between what's best for the individual player and the long term development of the team can come into conflict with putting the most ready-to-excel talent on the field. The Fusco/Schwartz mini-controversy in 2012 is a good example. Schwartz was the better player at the time but Frazier was also trying to develop Fusco and that paid dividends last season.

I could go on but the way I think this relates to Cassel and Ponder, and the likely reason Frazier stuck with the latter as long as he did last season (other than some close losses in winnable games that may have complicated the decision) is that Frazier wanted to go go with the 3rd year QB who he felt had more to offer the team down the road IF he continued developing than the veteran/journeyman QB who appears to have settled into what he will be in his NFL career. In other words, I think he was trading future potential for current veteran savvy, trying to develop a long term solution instead of falling back on a stop gap solution, as his predecessor tended to do. Perhaps if Cassel had separated himself from Ponder more during the summer it would have gone differently but I recall hearing that he didn't look all that good in camp either and he didn't really distinguish himself in the preseason.

I realize many will say Frazier's choice was folly and considering the results, perhaps it was but it seems like an understandable choice to me. It's an approach we've seen pay off for teams in the past and it's relevant now because I think Zimmer could easily face a similar choice in 2014 or 2015, especially once a new QB is added to the mix.