Do you want Johnny Manziel at #8?

[Loki]

Exactly Saint. Thats what i'm getting at, because he's never been asked to do it you don't know if he can do it. Manziel has been asked and has delivered.

[Mothman]

I get what you're saying and it was meant more in the context of Contrast with Johnny Manziel. Johnny isn't asked to do the things he does, he could simply throw a checkdown or throw the ball out of bounds when a play breaks down but he has the mentality to never let a play die. The same as Fran Tarkenton had.

Ah, I see what you meant now.

I also wonder why McCarron was asked to play the same role as other QB's who were sub-par. It Seems Like if he is the QB he's made out to be more would be put on his shoulders.

Maybe but Saban likes a balanced attack, usually with a bit more emphasis on the run, and he understandably wants to minimize turnovers. There's just not much reason to put more on his QB's shoulders when his team averaged over 38 points per game last year and allowed an average of less than 14.

In the end its less of a knock on McCarron as it is a praise on Manziel in contrast. McCarron doesn't have that fire in him to be considered the best QB, Manziel wants to dominate defenses and be considered one of the best all time.

Not sure I agree... how do you measure inner "fire"? McCcarron' has enough fire in him to be the Qb on a couple of national championship teams. When I've watched him, he's always struck me as a serious competitor. Manziel is flashy and demonstrative but I don't necessarily think that means he wants to win or achieve more than a guy like McCarron. I think they have different styles.

[Mothman]

I don't think he should be punished, but when evaluating a player who isn't asked to do as much as other players, you need to ask yourself why that is. What is AJ McCarron's ceiling? Can he be a franchise type QB, or is he going to struggle when a team asks him to do more than what was asked of him at Alabama? We've seen that he can manage a game, but what if the team around him is not playing their best, can McCarron lift his own game to make up for the team's struggles in other areas?

I get that and it's a fair question but to me, asking that question is quite different than implying that a player can't do those things simply because he played within the framework of an offense, and a team, that didn't necessitate him making up for his team's struggles. It's been pointed out that Manziel may have taken some of the chances he did because he knew A&M's defense stunk and they would need the points. McCarron was in the opposite situation. He played on some teams with dominant defenses. One of his jobs was undoubtedly to avoid unnecessary risks that could result in turnovers and hurt his team. It's become an insult to refer to a QB as a game manager but sometimes managing the game is the smartest way to play QB.

To me it's kind of a question of whether McCarron is Andy Dalton or Russell Wilson. Both QBs this year played similar roles, their teams relied on a strong running game, great defense and an efficient passing game. However, in the instances where the pressure was turned on the QB, Wilson stepped up and played very well when more was asked of him. On the flip side, when more was asked of Andy Dalton, he struggled, turning the ball over and hurting the team.

Building a balanced team is important, but a part of that is that when one aspect of the team is struggling, the other side must be able to elevate their game. And the question becomes if McCarron has the ability to elevate the passing game if the running game or defense is having an off day

Well said.

[Loki]

Another example of McCarron not having the "fire" to be the best i talked about is, despite a consensus view that he's not a 1st rounder, he chose to sit out the Senior Bowl. I can understand if he was viewed as a first rounder and didn't want to risk falling with a bad performance but he had a chance to go in and dominate the competition and vault himself ahead of Derek Carr. Instead he cites he wants to heal up his body. he's scared to compete outside of the confines of Alabama. Originally he wasn't going to throw at the combine either but I think he changed his mind after being ripped in the media for it.

[Mothman]

Another example of McCarron not having the "fire" to be the best i talked about is, despite a consensus view that he's not a 1st rounder, he chose to sit out the Senior Bowl. I can understand if he was viewed as a first rounder and didn't want to risk falling with a bad performance but he had a chance to go in and dominate the competition and vault himself ahead of Derek Carr. Instead he cites he wants to heal up his body. he's scared to compete outside of the confines of Alabama.

... or he really just wanted to heal.

Originally he wasn't going to throw at the combine either but I think he changed his mind after being ripped in the media for it.

He did it, didn't he? I guess he wasn't too scared after all.

Look, I'm not a big McCarron fan or anything, I just view the kind of criticisms you're making with more than a little skepticism. You're presuming to know more about the psychological state of a player than you could possibly know.

[mondry]

You showed two videos of exactly the same play, viewed one as the quarterback made the play and the other the receiver bailed out the quarterback. The plays are almost identical so if you say Mike Evans bailed out Johnny you must say Amari Cooper bailed out AJ McCarron.

You also said you watched plenty of johnny's games so I'm assuming you know how bad there defense was? Did you ever think Johnny is forced to take risks to win games because he can't just sit back and let his defense and running game with dominant offensive line win games. That brings me to why i don't like A.J. McCarron, you say Mike Evans bails out Johnny... Bama's whole team bails out AJ McCarron. If there was a time for him to show how dominant he is it would be behind that line against college players, but instead he simply managed games,

LOL! Love it, so true.

[Loki]

AJ McCarron's Original statement on skipping the senior bowl - "I really appreciate being invited to play in the Senior Bowl, It is quite an honor and something I've dreamed about while growing up in the Mobile area. However, at this time, I'm putting all of my focus and energy into preparing for the NFL Combine, pro day and the rest of the pre-draft evaluation process. Therefore, I won't be taking part in the Senior Bowl." Then only after the media criticized him for skipping did he say in interviews he wanted to heal up. If that was the reason I feel like he would've stated it originally. I give him credit for throwing at the combine, but it looks bad that he went back and forth about it. He even said he wasn't going to throw at the combine citing "not having timing with the receivers". no one has timing with the receivers.

[Loki]

I know with all these posts it sounds like i'm against picking A.J. McCarron. I'm not, I think he would be a descent option after Bridgewater, Manziel, Bortles, Carr, Murray and Garropolo. I would consider him with our second 3rd round pick ONLY if all the QB's i listed were gone already and we hadn't taken one. I just don't understand why certain people on this board are getting excited for a 3rd round QB who managed games with the best supporting cast in all of college football. From what he's done the best thing you could say is that his game transfers to the NFL and you get an average game managing QB. If Manziels skills translate to the NFL you have a dynamic playmaker that defenses will have to account for.

[Mothman]

AJ McCarron's Original statement on skipping the senior bowl - "I really appreciate being invited to play in the Senior Bowl, It is quite an honor and something I've dreamed about while growing up in the Mobile area. However, at this time, I'm putting all of my focus and energy into preparing for the NFL Combine, pro day and the rest of the pre-draft evaluation process. Therefore, I won't be taking part in the Senior Bowl." Then only after the media criticized him for skipping did he say in interviews he wanted to heal up. If that was the reason I feel like he would've stated it originally. I give him credit for throwing at the combine, but it looks bad that he went back and forth about it. He even said he wasn't going to throw at the combine citing "not having timing with the receivers". no one has timing with the receivers.

Thanks for the info but honestly, I don't think any of that means anything in terms of projecting these guys to the NFL. Should we assume Manziel is scared because he didn't throw at the combine? Once these players become draft eligible and hire an agent I think they operate largely under the advice they're given.

McCarron was more than willing to step out onto a football field and compete with his team in college, where he wasn't being paid to play, so I think it's safe to say he's not afraid to compete.

[Loki]

Thanks for the info but honestly, I don't think any of that means anything in terms of projecting these guys to the NFL. Should we assume Manziel is scared because he didn't throw at the combine? Once these players become draft eligible and hire an agent I think they operate largely under the advice they're given.

McCarron was more than willing to step out onto a football field and compete with his team in college, where he wasn't being paid to play, so I think it's safe to say he's not afraid to compete.

Manziel is a consensus top 10 pick. Throwing at the combine couldn't move him any higher.

It means nothing in and of itself, but when you combine it with the fact that he says he one of the top QB's in the draft and states that he game managed at Alabama because that was the system and what he was asked to do you'd think he would welcome the opportunity to light up the senior bowl and show a team he's more than a game manager.

[Mothman]

It means nothing in and of itself, but when you combine it with the fact that he says he one of the top QB's in the draft and states that he game managed at Alabama because that was the system and what he was asked to do you'd think he would welcome the opportunity to light up the senior bowl and show a team he's more than a game manager.

Maybe he was advised against it. I don't see how it really matters. He's already put together a resume of college performances by which he'll be assessed and he did so at a major program in the most highly-touted conference in college football. Unlike some of the other QBs who performed at the Senior Bowl, he didn't need to show what he could do against a higher level of competition.

It's easy enough to find fault in postseason, pre-draft choices if you want to look for it but for a guy like McCarron, not playing at the Senior Bowl just doesn't mean much, if anything. He threw at the combine. He threw at his pro day. He'll probably be more than happy to throw in private workouts for teams that request them and he has the aforementioned resumé of college performances. That's probably more than enough.

[Loki]

Maybe he was advised against it. I don't see how it really matters. He's already put together a resume of college performances by which he'll be assessed and he did so at a major program in the most highly-touted conference in college football. Unlike some of the other QBs who performed at the Senior Bowl, he didn't need to show what he could do against a higher level of competition.

It's easy enough to find fault in postseason, pre-draft choices if you want to look for it but for a guy like McCarron, not playing at the Senior Bowl just doesn't mean much, if anything. He threw at the combine. He threw at his pro day. He'll probably be more than happy to throw in private workouts for teams that request them and he has the aforementioned resumé of college performances. That's probably more than enough.

He was advised against it by his agent, but its still his choice. He didn't need to prove he can compete at a high level, he needed to prove that when the playing field is even (as many NFL players on you're team as against it) he can do more than just manage a game. This is something that can't be shown by simply throwing routes. His resume is definately enough to get himself a job in the NFL but if he wanted to move into the 2nd or 1st round he had his chance and he passed on it.

This is my last post on the subject though since this is a Manziel thread and it's being taken over by McCarron talk and I feel like i've said all i need to on the subject.

[King James]

I'm saying that one of the knocks on McCarron is his lack of arm strength and there's a bit of that showing on this play. Don't get me wrong, it was a good play. The WR did a LOT to help his QB on this one, though (sound familiar?). That route totally baffled the corner.

On the terms of arm strength, I don't think Manziel's is any stronger than McCarron. I still believe that ball was placed where it was due to the fact he threw off his back foot. He didn't even set his feet that play. Then again when you are pinned that deep in your own territory, can you blame him for quickly getting rid of it? Despite the fact it then seem to sail on him a little bit.

Your comments ("guaranteed bust", "Tebow 2.0", "won't last in the league for 5 years" and such) conclusions do not match the film. You also seem to have had a pretty significant change of heart. I thought you liked him at #8 overall

I don't know if it was this thread or another thread but I said I don't think Manziel will fit here. I do believe he will be a bust. Some people think McCarron won't be anything either. Many college QBs have had great college careers but not so great NFL careers. If JFB proves me wrong, I'll give him his credit where credit is due.

You're saying when his receivers are covered he struggled? That's not exactly a revelation. Most quarterbacks struggle when that happens. And it's hard to fault him for throwing it to a covered Mike Evans when he likely has several inch height advantage and often a superior talent to the guy defending him. This is common practice in the NFL with the receiver/QB combos I listed previously. I also think you're focusing way too much on a handful of "miracle throws" to Evans when these represented such a small fraction of his completed passes.

Maybe you're right on this one.

OK? Evans is really the only receiver from the 2013 squad that's expected to be drafted. Derel Walker (#2 receiver) is likely going to be an UDFA.

Hmmmmmm I wonder why? This is the main WR responsible for making Manziel look the QB he is today. No what the circumstances is, when the ball is thrown his way, he will catch it. Plus Manziel runs alot too when sensing pressure so I don't know whether other WRs are actually getting open or he's just overlooking them.

Those sound like a lot of positives. Unlike some of our previous QBs that could easily get shut down. Anyone who signs Manziel will have to understand they're going to get the bad with the good (even if they try to coach out a lot of the bad). I don't know if he's going to ever be like a Tom Brady. To me, that'll kill part of what makes him special and there's no guarantee he's even physically capable of doing that. I do hope his pocket presence continues to trend in the right direction as it did from last season to this one.

It'll be interesting to follow his career. Here's hoping if we select him he'll be as electric in Minnesota as he was in Texas.

He took a lot of hits in college that left him seriously hurt at times. In the NFL he can not afford to get hit by these defenders because they are much bigger and stronger than what he faced in college. His pocket presence has got to improve, especially when teams contain him. I know there's going to be a game where the defense locks all that scrambling he does down. If I can see a game where he still dominates despite one dimension of his game taken away, then Ill believe.

But I don't want him as a Viking. If he does get drafted to us, I won't be upset. I just hope he proves me wrong.

[Texas Vike]

I'll take a Benjamin for that one!

I don't know how DP has the patience to argue with you. You conveniently miss the point over and over. I did like your closing sentiment though. We would love it if JFB proved you wrong!

[dead_poet]

I don't know how DP has the patience to argue with you. You conveniently miss the point over and over. I did like your closing sentiment though. We would love it if JFB proved you wrong!

It's really not all that convenient.