Vikings grades: Offensive Line

[halfgiz]

I'm sorry but Kalil is a dumpster fire. And if you think we will get him cheap.
Go to Norseman they done and article on Kalil last year, other than his rookie year he has been in the bottom 1/3 of the heap.
2015 he had both knees scoped, this year he had the hip problem.
Even Long was rated ahead of him this year.
To improve we need better players, which means moving on from Kalil.

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2015/4/20/ ... matt-kalil

[fiestavike]

This is where scenario analysis comes into play IMO. The Vikings have bigger needs at T than at G. But competition will be stiff.

Scenario A: They get a top FA at G and T
Scenario B: They get a top FA T and then draft for depth
Scenario C: They get a top FA T and a lesser FA T/G, then draft for future
Scenario D: Reverse C and grab top G, lesser T
Scenario E: They sign nobody, and draft (This would piss a lot of people off)
Scenario F: They avoid big spending (possible, Spielman likes to say he does that) and then sign some 2nd tier guys (See last year...)
Scenario XYZ: Something else I didn't think of

The X-Factor in all of this is the perception of a superbowl window being open. Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, I think it fair to assume that the Vikings believe this to be true. (see Sam Bradford Trade.)

Given the X Factor I think they are going to grab a top FA OL in an effort to win now. I think Scenario C is most likely and D is second most likely assuming they lose out on a top T.

Let's just face the facts: Tackle is a dumpster fire and it would be criminal for them to waste another season of a competitive roster by allowing TJ Clemmings to see any playing time. They should play the song "Sabotage" by the Beastie Boys every time a coach even thinks about allowing him to set foot on the field. They have to address this in March and it might mean breaking the bank to make it happen. The needs on the inside are nowhere near as critical as the need at T.

Its fun to think about. I really think the decision to stick with Shurmur gives some indication about their approach. Its not going to make sense to chase a top FA Tackle if we'll be running a quick hitting WC offense. Just get the line somewhere near the middle of the pack and invest to create a truly dominant Defense.

Its a defensible position to take from a GM perspective. If they would have had a different OC and offensive system, investing in top tier OL and keeping Peterson might make sense, but since I don't think they can do both of those things anyway financially, that probably weighed into the decision to commit to Shurmur/Bradford for the next 2-3 seasons.

Its absolutely not my first choice, but the way things have shaken out since the start of last years preseason has forced them to change directions, and this seems to be the direction they and moving in now.

[MrPurplenGold]

Its fun to think about. I really think the decision to stick with Shurmur gives some indication about their approach. Its not going to make sense to chase a top FA Tackle if we'll be running a quick hitting WC offense. Just get the line somewhere near the middle of the pack and invest to create a truly dominant Defense.

Its a defensible position to take from a GM perspective. If they would have had a different OC and offensive system, investing in top tier OL and keeping Peterson might make sense, but since I don't think they can do both of those things anyway financially, that probably weighed into the decision to commit to Shurmur/Bradford for the next 2-3 seasons.

Its absolutely not my first choice, but the way things have shaken out since the start of last years preseason has forced them to change directions, and this seems to be the direction they and moving in now.

For the most part I agree with this. There's no way to completely fix the offensive line. With the quick hitting offense I think they try to sign a top guard so that Bradford can have a better chance at moving up in the pocket when the tackles get beat. The best graded lineman are Boone and Berger, so if they can solidify the interior I think that's going to be the best option.

I think if Khalil is willing to resign as a backup, he can at least provide depth and you draft a Tackle with the 2nd round pick and let Hill and Sirles develop as your tackles.

So our line would be
LT Hill, rookie , Khalil
LG Boone, Berger
C berger , Easton
RG FA, Fusco
RT Sirles, Clemmings, rookie

One of those won't make the roster, and my guess it would be Khalil doesn't get resigned or Clemmings is cut

[fiestavike]

So our line would be
LT Hill, rookie , Khalil
LG Boone, Berger
C berger , Easton
RG FA, Fusco
RT Sirles, Clemmings, rookie

One of those won't make the roster, and my guess it would be Khalil doesn't get resigned or Clemmings is cut

I think Clemmings will be cut and Kalil will be too expensive to sit on the bench.

[halfgiz]

For the most part I agree with this. There's no way to completely fix the offensive line. With the quick hitting offense I think they try to sign a top guard so that Bradford can have a better chance at moving up in the pocket when the tackles get beat. The best graded lineman are Boone and Berger, so if they can solidify the interior I think that's going to be the best option.

I think if Khalil is willing to resign as a backup, he can at least provide depth and you draft a Tackle with the 2nd round pick and let Hill and Sirles develop as your tackles.

So our line would be
LT Hill, rookie , Khalil
LG Boone, Berger
C berger , Easton
RG FA, Fusco
RT Sirles, Clemmings, rookie

One of those won't make the roster, and my guess it would be Khalil doesn't get resigned or Clemmings is cut

I think that Sirles is better suited at the guard position. The only reason he played tackle this season was because of injuries.
Kalil will test the market, he won't sign as a backup.

[J. Kapp 11]

found this article from another forum

The future of the Vikings, part 4: The offensive line

Those two GIFs of Clemmings ... wow. If that doesn't sum up his utter hopelessness, nothing does.

I don't think I've ever seen a tackle LITERALLY whiff on a rusher like the play against Houston. Didn't get a finger on a guy who was right in front of him!

And the Bears vid. Holy cow. He's 320 pounds and gets blasted straight into Bradford's face. Unbelievable!

Yeah, we need serious help on the line.

[808vikingsfan]

Those two GIFs of Clemmings ... wow. If that doesn't sum up his utter hopelessness, nothing does.

I don't think I've ever seen a tackle LITERALLY whiff on a rusher like the play against Houston. Didn't get a finger on a guy who was right in front of him!

And the Bears vid. Holy cow. He's 320 pounds and gets blasted straight into Bradford's face. Unbelievable!

Yeah, we need serious help on the line.

OL is only as good as its weakest link. Vikings always seem to have one really bad lineman. Charlie Johnson was almost as bad as Clemmings. I think they're closer to shoring up the line than most people think.

[halfgiz]

OL is only as good as its weakest link. Vikings always seem to have one really bad lineman. Charlie Johnson was almost as bad as Clemmings. I think they're closer to shoring up the line than most people think.

They could definitely use a couple breaks in 2017 and a couple over achievers.

[IIsweet]

I would prefer Jake Long than Kalil. He had an Achilles issue also, so I don't want him either. He could be a vet minimum backup just in case he does heal, but I probably pass.
Good point Fiesta on the Shurmur quick hitting offense and not really needing top tier OL.
I think that the OL is close but needs a couple players.
Have to release Clemmings and Fusco IMO..
Right now we have
LT - Hill
LG - Boone
C - Berger
RG - Harris, if we still have rights? Not sure his status
RT - Sirles

Depth with Easton, Shepherd.
I would draft Bolles, Ramczyk, McDermott or Wheeler as LT and RT Skipper.
I would sign FA OG Zeitler or best I could and move Harris to RT.

We do need a big fatty DT. Linval is disruptive like KWill was but we're lacking a Fat Pat type ! Gimme a Brandon Williams type...
Also, I wish we could use Jet McKinnon like the way NE is Dion Lewis tonight.
This is the type of offense I hope to see next year.

[mansquatch]

There was a stat on Kalil over the past few seasons somewhere that made the point that if you take away his rookie season his overall numbers are pretty bad. So he might be a lot of money to basically stay mediocre to poor. That isn't exactly exciting resource allocation IMO.

From that standpoint, along with Jim's point that signing Kalil is like signing a FA, then it makes a lot of sense to chase a guy like Wentworth. Arguably similar cost but likely that we'll get better performance.

One positive for us is that our Tackle play was so utterly bad last year that even a 2nd tier FA is likely an upgrade from what we saw in 2016. The question is whether or not such a guy would help us be competitive vs. just less bad.

[Banquo]

It's hard to imagine both Zeitler and Whitworth hitting free agency without the Bengals re-signing at least one of them and I find it even more difficult to imagine the Vikings signing 3 of the top OL free agents in one offseason.

The Steelers signed David DeCastro (who was drafted just a few picks above Zeitler in 2012) to a 5 year, $50 million contract in 2016 so I imagine Zeitler and his agent will look for a similar deal. Even if the Vikes got him at $40 million for 4-5 years, investing $8-10 million a year in the RG position after signing Boone to a $27 million, 4 year contract and then signing 3 free agent tackles (Kalil, Whitworth and Wagner) seems unlikely, not to mention potentially cost-prohibitive.

I think there's a good chance Wagner will never hit free agency either. It's not a deep market for tackles so if he does, there would probably be competition for him which could drive his price up.

I agree in that I doubt Zeitler will hit the market. Whitworth likely will, though whether he chooses to retire rather than start over with a new team is a real possibility. But if he would follow Zimmer to Minnesota for a year or two, that would be a win. He's old as the hills, but he's still very good (I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know). If he retires, then I think you have to look at Reiff as a guy who is OK at either tackle spot. They'd have to overpay to get him, but "OK" is a lot better than what they've worked with recently.

Boone can be cut at any time without cap implications, so if they do want to sign a premier guard (say Zeitler DID somehow get out of Cincy), it can be done. I'd keep Clemmings and bring Harris back into camp and see how they look in a competition at guard-- not necessarily because I want to keep either next year, but because we don't really save much by cutting the former and it won't cost much to bring back the latter so they might as well keep them on the 90 man roster.

Another FA to watch is J.C. Tretter. He's a pretty good player at both center and guard.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I've read that Cincy has still not began any kind of talks with Zeitler

[Banquo]

I've read that Cincy has still not began any kind of talks with Zeitler

They talked last offseason, but didn't get anything done by the time the games started so they broke things off. Given that they are likely moving on from Whitworth and chose not to pay Smith, you'd think they'd pony up for Zeitler right? I mean, theoretically you make those choices to let some people walk for the very purpose of having the space to keep quality players like Zeitler. But I guess we'll see.

[mansquatch]

I'm wondering if Marvin Lewis survives? Cincy had a window in 2015 and squandered it. This season they were awful. Maybe Cincy is about to go to rebuild mode?

[Banquo]

I'm wondering if Marvin Lewis survives? Cincy had a window in 2015 and squandered it. This season they were awful. Maybe Cincy is about to go to rebuild mode?

If it was going to happen this offseason, it would have already.