Ponder: The Answer?

[Mothman]

But here's a comparison for those who were tired of TJack but now think Ponder is the answer. Career stats.



Welcome to TJack part 2.

We've already been down this road. It took Jackson 6 seasons to compile those numbers. Ponder's not likely to get that long unless he keeps improving, in which case his numbers will likely be much, much better than Jackson's after 6 seasons.

Ponder's career stats after 2 seasons compare pretty favorably to those of QBs like Troy Aikman and Eli Manning so should we be saying "Welcome to Aikman Part 2" or "Welcome to Manning Part 2"?

Whether people like it or not, Ponder's the Vikings starting QB and almost certainly will be going into next season so we might as well sit back, and see how it plays out. What's important now is for Ponder to continue improving and for the Vikings to build around him, give him a better chance to succeed and make sure they have a good plan B if he doesn't.

[vikeinmontana]

Next year is Ponder's make or break year, this won't be T-Jack Part 2.

Here's a snippet from a recent Q and A with Spielman:
Next year is Ponder's 3rd year.

which is exactly how it should be. and if he doesn't improve i am fine with them looking in another direction. but writing a kid off on draft day or after he's thrown into action in a shortened season is premature in my opinion. 3 years should be enough time to adjust to the nfl game, understand the ins and outs of the offense, and show major improvement. if this is not done you can expect to be released, a backup, or worse....out of the league.

[Eli]

So Rick, how do you use your 'rule'?

After three years, if your reached-for-12th-overall QB pick is a failure, do you reach for another one? Then you start your rookie QB and repeat the process all over again?

Brilliant.

[Just Me]

So Rick, how do you use your 'rule'?

After three years, if your reached-for-12th-overall QB pick is a failure, do you reach for another one? Then you start your rookie QB and repeat the process all over again?

Brilliant.

Serious question: At the point he took over from the train-wreck (AKA the 'triangle-of-authority') what exactly were his options?

I'm not saying I'm happy with how it appears to be turning out, but I think the alternative was worse (to not take a chance on a 'reasonable risk' in the first round). He could have stuck his 'head-in-the-sand' and signed another 40-year-old vet I suppose...

[PurpleKoolaid]

Serious question: At the point he took over from the train-wreck (AKA the 'triangle-of-authority') what exactly were his options?

I'm not saying I'm happy with how it appears to be turning out, but I think the alternative was worse (to not take a chance on a 'reasonable risk' in the first round). He could have stuck his 'head-in-the-sand' and signed another 40-year-old vet I suppose...

Or waited till the 3rd or 4th and got Mallet. A 6'4'' 230 pound pocket passer. Lotsa things could have been done, im kinda thinking the reaching thing wasnt a good idea. Hope Im wrong.

[MrPurplenGold]

Or waited till the 3rd or 4th and got Mallet. A 6'4'' 230 pound pocket passer. Lotsa things could have been done, im kinda thinking the reaching thing wasnt a good idea. Hope Im wrong.

No Idea what the infatuation with Mallet is. He was passed over by EVERY NFL team for 3 ENTIRE rounds. He's obviously not as good as you potentially believe he is.

As far as them reaching for Ponder, I think the NEED for a QB makes a lot of teams reach for a QB. QB is the most important position on the field. Just like Peterson has put in the work to EARN the title of MVP, it's probably going to go to a QB because they are the most valuable player on the team. Their overall value to a team changes potential "Draft Grades"

Truth is, if they didn't take Ponder, there was no one else on the board for them to take either.

13 Detroit Lions Nick Fairley DT
14 St. Louis Rams Robert Quinn DE
15 Miami Dolphins Mike Pouncey C
16 Washington Redskins Ryan Kerrigan DE
17 New England Patriots Nate Solder OT
18 San Diego Chargers Corey Liuget DT
19 New York Giants Prince Amukamara CB
20 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Adrian Clayborn DE
21 Cleveland Browns Phil Taylor DT
22 Indianapolis Colts Anthony Castonzo OT
23 Philadelphia Eagles Danny Watkins G
24 New Orleans Saints Cameron Jordan DE
25 Seattle Seahawks James Carpenter OT
26 Kansas City Chiefs Jonathan Baldwin WR
27 Baltimore Ravens Jimmy Smith CB
28 New Orleans Saints Mark Ingram RB
29 Chicago Bears Gabe Carimi OT
30 New York Jets Muhammad Wilkerson DE
31 Pittsburgh Steelers Cameron Heyward DE
32 Green Bay Packers Derek Sherrod OT

I can't say that I see anyone on that list that I would overwhelmingly take over ponder

[Reignman]

We've already been down this road. It took Jackson 6 seasons to compile those numbers. Ponder's not likely to get that long unless he keeps improving, in which case his numbers will likely be much, much better than Jackson's after 6 seasons.

Exactly! We've been down this road which is why we're still talking about it. And the fact that TJ's stats are spread out over 6 seasons doesn't help the case of Ponder supporters. TJ was jerked around more but Ponder gets the benefit of the doubt because he was drafted higher.

Ponder's career stats after 2 seasons compare pretty favorably to those of QBs like Troy Aikman and Eli Manning so should we be saying "Welcome to Aikman Part 2" or "Welcome to Manning Part 2"?

Comparable to Aikman yes, but not to Eli, I don't know what stats you're looking at. Eli struggled his rookie year where he only played 8 games, but he was already looking pretty good by his 2nd year. Aikman was from a different era so that's apples to oranges. Hell Aikman's career stats aren't really that good when you compare him to today's top QB's. He only had 20+ TD's once, and only reached 3400 passing yards once, but he won a few bowls so all is forgiven.

Whether people like it or not, Ponder's the Vikings starting QB and almost certainly will be going into next season so we might as well sit back, and see how it plays out. What's important now is for Ponder to continue improving and for the Vikings to build around him, give him a better chance to succeed and make sure they have a good plan B if he doesn't.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve a 3rd year. I'm well aware of the 3 year plan and I'm aware that some QB's hit their stride later, but I don't see why we can't sit back and debate about it until that happens or we move on. That's what fans do and that's why most of us are here.

which is exactly how it should be. and if he doesn't improve i am fine with them looking in another direction. but writing a kid off on draft day or after he's thrown into action in a shortened season is premature in my opinion. 3 years should be enough time to adjust to the nfl game, understand the ins and outs of the offense, and show major improvement. if this is not done you can expect to be released, a backup, or worse....out of the league.

And nobody is saying that's how it shouldn't be, but shouldn't you at least see some improvement along the way? It's been 2 years and his college scouting reports are still accurate. Either the QB has trouble learning, or our coaches are not as good as we think.

Serious question: At the point he took over from the train-wreck (AKA the 'triangle-of-authority') what exactly were his options?

I'm not saying I'm happy with how it appears to be turning out, but I think the alternative was worse (to not take a chance on a 'reasonable risk' in the first round). He could have stuck his 'head-in-the-sand' and signed another 40-year-old vet I suppose...

I don't think anyone is complaining about the pick, except in hindsight. Hell I was happy with the pick at the time, but that happiness slowly died with each and every bad pass and sub 100 yard game.

[Mothman]

Comparable to Aikman yes, but not to Eli, I don't know what stats you're looking at. Eli struggled his rookie year where he only played 8 games, but he was already looking pretty good by his 2nd year. Aikman was from a different era so that's apples to oranges. Hell Aikman's career stats aren't really that good when you compare him to today's top QB's. He only had 20+ TD's once, and only reached 3400 passing yards once, but he won a few bowls so all is forgiven.

The era wasn't so different that the stats are irrelevant. If anything, Aikman's stats are indicative of a QB who was asked to be an efficient part of a well-balanced team that relied as much on it's running game as it's passing game, something the Vikes are trying to build. As for Eli, I was looking at his combined stats for his first two seasons since you were using Ponder's combined stat totals from his first two seasons. After a similar number of game appearances in their first two seasons (25 for Eli, 26 for Ponder) the two ended up with comparable combined stats in several areas:

Eli completed 48.2% of his passes in his first season and 52.8 in his second. Ponder's completion percentages were 54.3 and 62.1, respectively).
Eli threw for 4805 yards, 30 TDs and 26 INTs. Ponder threw for a very similar 4788 yards, 31 TDs and 25 INTs.

There are differences, of course, but it's really not much harder to look at the numbers of someone like Eli Manning or even Drew Brees (since Aikman played in the 80s and '90s) and make a claim similar to what you're saying about Ponder and Jackson. The truth is we just don't know with any certainty how good Ponder will be in 2 or 3 seasons (or even next season). He may keep improving and become a much, much better QB or he may level off and never be much better than he was in 2012. Overall, he improved in 2012 and he played his best game in the last and most meaningful game of the year. There are reasons to feel encouraged about him and as you said, some QBs hit their stride later.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve a 3rd year. I'm well aware of the 3 year plan and I'm aware that some QB's hit their stride later, but I don't see why we can't sit back and debate about it until that happens or we move on. That's what fans do and that's why most of us are here.

Nobody said we couldn't debate about it but it would be nice if we could move beyond the simplistic (and I mean no insult by that) "he's another Tarvaris Jackson" argument.

[CalVike]

He did enough the last four weeks to earn the undisputed 2013 starter role. There were still noticeable mistakes in his mechanics even in that time frame so he should be under close scrutiny. At this point, it matters not where they drafted him, just whether he can lead an NFL team to playoff success. I expect a new #2 QB, an improvement at WR, hope for the return of Percy Harvin, and a better Viking offense in 2013. If Ponder cannot support this improvement, they should look elsewhere and they will.

[Mothman]

He did enough the last four weeks to earn the undisputed 2013 starter role. There were still noticeable mistakes in his mechanics even in that time frame so he should be under close scrutiny. At this point, it matters not where they drafted him, just whether he can lead an NFL team to playoff success. I expect a new #2 QB, an improvement at WR, hope for the return of Percy Harvin, and a better Viking offense in 2013. If Ponder cannot support this improvement, they should look elsewhere and they will.

That sums it up well.

I have a feeling Ponder will be better next season and I think if they significantly upgrade their receiving corps and pass block more like they did during the 4 game winning streak that closed out the season, we'll see a more aggressive passing offense and more production from the QB. It's no coincidence that his worst stretch of the season coincided with the worst stretch for the pass protection or that a team with few genuine deep threats had few deep completions.

Hopefully, another offseason with the team and (please, please) some better weapons on the outside will lead to a better 2013 season from Ponder. It would be nice if the team didn't have to go back to square one.

[Just Me]

That sums it up well.

I have a feeling Ponder will be better next season and I think if they significantly upgrade their receiving corps and pass block more like they did during the 4 game winning streak that closed out the season, we'll see a more aggressive passing offense and more production from the QB. It's no coincidence that his worst stretch of the season coincided with the worst stretch for the pass protection or that a team with few genuine deep threats had few deep completions.

Hopefully, another offseason with the team and (please, please) some better weapons on the outside will lead to a better 2013 season from Ponder. It would be nice if the team didn't have to go back to square one.

I think if we have any upgrade at all in our receiving corps and Ponder is still a question mark with his performance, we'll have a definitive answer for his long term association with the Vikings. When you have the best running back in the NFL (and a contender for one of the best in history) with Percy Harvin and another receiver(s) to throw to, if you can't make your passing game effective, you never will. Plus Ponder will be in year three. Again, if he's not figuring it out by then, he likely never will...

[Mothman]

I think if we have any upgrade at all in our receiving corps and Ponder is still a question mark with his performance, we'll have a definitive answer for his long term association with the Vikings. When you have the best running back in the NFL (and a contender for one of the best in history) with Percy Harvin and another receiver(s) to throw to, if you can't make your passing game effective, you never will. Plus Ponder will be in year three. Again, if he's not figuring it out by then, he likely never will...

I believe line play is always very significant so it will take more than just any upgrade in the receiving corps. I firmly believe they need a real threat on the outside and Simpson and Jenkins were woefully inadequate in that department this season. Getting marginally better at WR won't cut it. They need to get much, much better at the position.

Personally, I'd say Ponder is already "figuring it out". He needs to continue improving but overall, he was a better player in 2012 than in 2011 and down the stretch, he minimized mistakes and really helped the team win. There were problems, particularly during the middle of the season when teams figured out that the Vikes didn't really have much of a third option in the passing game beyond Harvin and Rudolph. They began blanketing those two guys and then blitzed like crazy. The line couldn't handle it and Ponder didn't have the outside receivers to beat it. He began pressing and overreacting and things went downhill from there. However, when the coaches began to adjust, the pass protection began to improve, Ponder settled down and the passing game gradually became more effective, culminating in a very good performance in the final game of the regular season.

That's my take on it anyway.

Ponder needs to eliminate the low lows and not only improve but become more consistent.

[soflavike]

He did enough the last four weeks to earn the undisputed 2013 starter role. There were still noticeable mistakes in his mechanics even in that time frame so he should be under close scrutiny. At this point, it matters not where they drafted him, just whether he can lead an NFL team to playoff success. I expect a new #2 QB, an improvement at WR, hope for the return of Percy Harvin, and a better Viking offense in 2013. If Ponder cannot support this improvement, they should look elsewhere and they will.

Okay, let's say Ponder did do enough to be the undisputed starter for week 1 next season. Fine.

That being said, if a good QB is BPA early in the draft, the Vikes would be idiots not to pick him. Only a fool is completely sold on Ponder as our QB of the future based on what he did this season.

[CalVike]

Only a fool is completely sold on Ponder as our QB of the future based on what he did this season.

No fools in the Vikings front office or coaching staff. They will get it right. Ponder is better than you say. No one is completely sold, Frazier is close, but performance will drive it all. Performance at the end of the season was more than acceptable.

[PurpleKoolaid]

No fools in the Vikings front office or coaching staff. They will get it right. Ponder is better than you say. No one is completely sold, Frazier is close, but performance will drive it all. Performance at the end of the season was more than acceptable.

Hmm based on what? A few years experience? Hoping doesnt make it so. Didnt the QB situation this year make you wonder a little bit? From Ponder to MBT? Webb was our backup..... Now yes, there is improvement. But its hard not to improve on a 3-13 season. Im much more excited about our drafting then our FAs and coaching this year.